unlike RA gliding does not have a bulk of unhappy GA pilots to convert over.
Having my PPl (rotary and fixed) I looked at both the RA scene and gliding and eventually took up gliding in 2007 as i thought it more challenging than boring holes in the sky again. Little was I to know that the biggest constraint to my gliding enjoyment were club limitations. I even tried to change things a little by being on the club committee but eventually resigned due to frustration and unreasonable constraint. That said, I did find a way fwd being to get a glider on long term hire, found lots of events to go to, made a ton of friends and had a ball from there. I also found a couple of clubs that were far better than the first one. So what i can say is not to tar the scene with a single brush, there are plenty of options and choices if you want to work at it....but not everyone is as persistent as me and i did see others give up along the way which was a shame. > On 31 Jan 2017, at 11:55 AM, Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think you may have got the wrong interpretation of what Jim wrote, Mark. > He basically agrees with you. > The reason for RAaus success is that it ISN'T club based like the GFA. > I don't think it is coincidental that the beginning of the decline of the GFA > was at the same time that the AUF ( now RAaus ) became a legitimate > recognised form of aviation. > Lots easier to get your certificate, buy or build a little bug smasher and go > flying with a friend whenever the weather is suitable and you want to. > Sailing clubs are having membership problems too. There just aren't the > numbers of kids in dinghies that there used to be but I see plenty of kite > surfers > and board riders at the beach or any suitable body of water when the wind is > blowing. No clubs. > Now the RAaus success may be short lived, like the expansion of the GFA in > the 1970s. RAaus has re-organised as a company and their new tech manual is > causing some disquiet. People who went there to escape stupid CASA > bureaucracy are finding that the RAaus is creating its own stupid bureaucracy > (like the GFA has done) or that CASA is still in control ( see Jabiru engine > debacle). I know of at least one who quit as a result from our airfield ( > only 12 aircraft) and RAaus membership is, I believe lower now than it was a > while ago. > There is actually no good reason for the proliferation of "self > administering" bodies, just reasonable rules embodied in the CARs for the > operation of aircraft other than standard GA aircraft, like glider, motor > gliders and ultralight aircraft. > This is likely to help all the sport and recreational sectors as > qualifications would be the same or similar with add on ratings for different > forms of aviation while the basic regulatory qualifications are the same. > By promoting the current splintered setup, CASA has successfully divided and > conquered. > > Mike > > > >> On 30 Jan 2017, at 8:45 PM, Mark Newton <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> A lot of the comments below are platitudes that boil down to, "I was born in >> the 1950s and don't understand young people anymore". >> >> This is my surprised face. >> >> Sneering about planned leisure, social media, careful time management, lack >> of appreciation for a circuit after sitting on the fence for hours on a >> rainy day. It all just means that society has moved on to the point where >> YOU don't get it anymore. None of it means people don't appreciate new >> experiences or self-betterment, it just means you don't know how to cater to >> the ones who do. >> >> "Even bowls clubs are closing!" Hahaah Well, yes, they've been outstandingly >> amazing at attracting a young crowd, haven't they? They're closing because >> most of their members are dead. >> >> If your reasoning for GFA's shrinkage was accurate, RAAus wouldn't be going >> great guns. >> >> For all their faults, I reckon half of their membership is sourced from ex >> PPL holders who want something cheaper or without a medical, and the other >> half is from new entrants who can engage with RAAus in a way that they can't >> elsewhere. >> >> Book lessons at agreed times with a professional instructor, end up with >> qualifications which transfer over to other forms of aviation when they're >> ready for bigger and better things, and airplanes that cost less than >> gliders, which they can enjoy with their mates at a time and manner of their >> choosing. If they don't want to stay under the RAAus system, they can >> convert to RPL and fly similar aircraft under VH registration with a CASA >> license. No mess, no fuss. >> >> That's essentially the entirety of RAAus' success story. >> >> In its present form, gliding in Australia offers none of those things. Even >> if kids these days didn't spend their time on risk-free non-competitive >> sports and Playstations, it'd STILL offer none of it. >> >> I tweeted a Lycoming engine oil change over the weekend. Posted commentary >> and photos of procedures, tools, technical tips, and airworthiness paperwork >> to social media. As a result, I have another person who found enough >> interest in the material to want to experience a first flight in my RV, >> another person to whom I say, "Sure! We'll fly to the Hunter Valley for >> lunch. It's free, no charge, just promise me you'll take a TIF at one of the >> Bankstown or Camden flying schools and we'll call it even." >> >> So far, most of these "free" flights have been pleasant weekends, nothing >> more, minimal followup. But they've also generated a PPL and two RAAus pilot >> certificates since 2012, and another dude who already had a license >> convinced himself to buy his own plane instead of renting. There's also one >> on the boil in Adelaide who's half way through training but sunk his money >> into house renovations; he'll be another PPL when he's cashed up again. >> >> Easy, isn't it? >> >> But hey, times have changed. Social media is a waste of time, all that >> tapping on phones instead of enjoying the real world. Can't get people >> excited about flying anymore anyway. Flying's like a bus trip, with no >> benefit to anyone, no sense of achievement. >> >> Yeah, nah. Just have to identify and target the people who have it in their >> blood, in their imagination, who want to do it, instead of randomly shooting >> AEFs out of a cannon at all-comers with gay abandon; and then, having given >> them a taste to get them started, give them what they want. >> >> When I finally hang up the silk scarf and flying goggles, I'll do it with >> the satisfaction that I've replaced myself, that my retirement hasn't >> detracted from pilot numbers. Betcha I personally have a better >> first-flight-to-training-complete ratio than any gliding club in Australia. >> It ain't that hard. >> >> - mark >> >> -- >> Tiny screen, imaginary keyboard. >> >> >>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 21:10, James McDowall <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I first came into contact with gliding in the early 1960's when my father >>> took up gliding to satisfy an itch dating back to the late 1940's when he >>> helped build a glider that ultimately ended up with the fledgling ASC. >>> In those days, many people would spend their weekends (or perhaps do a two >>> week course) sitting on the side of the airfield in all sorts of weather >>> waiting for the chance to do a few circuits or if they were really lucky a >>> soaring flight. Time wasn't an issue and no one thought too much about >>> spending their Saturday nights in primitive accommodation. >>> Fifty plus years later society has changed and flying for most is regarded >>> in the same as taking a bus trip. The wonder of flying has been lost on >>> most. Our WW2 pilots who formed the backbone of post war GA and >>> recreational flying are gone as is the connection with their exploits - how >>> many kids today will rub shoulders with a RAAF pilot, let alone one who has >>> seen active service? >>> Many sports are struggling to attract newcomers - especially in country >>> areas which were the backbone of gliding. Tennis courts are ploughed under, >>> football clubs merging to stay afloat and even bowls clubs closing. >>> Whilst there are many reasons one only has to talk to fathers with school >>> age children. Their weekends are driven by activities planned around the >>> kids. These activities are so highly organised to be risk free and >>> non-competitive you really wonder if there is any long lasting benefit to >>> anyone as their seems to be no sense of achievement. Throw in the thuggery >>> of social media and non-conformance is not tolerated. Taking the kids to an >>> airfield to sit on the edge of an airfield all day would probably be >>> regarded as a form of child abuse! >>> But the biggest factor governing human behaviour today is TIME. Whether it >>> is true or not the community is convinced that it is time poor - so poor >>> that we cant even cook for ourselves for example. Everything we consider >>> buying is now presented as so many dollars per week or month - we live in >>> pay by the month society. This is not conducive to a discretionary spend >>> like flying. Add to this that there has been no real increase in wages for >>> about a decade there is little doubt that or many in the community who >>> would have been attracted to gliding fifty years ago can no longer consider >>> it on economic grounds alone. >>> Unless gliding restructures itself to reflect the time constraints of >>> society it will most certainly die. Unless students can make an appointment >>> to take a lesson for example the completion rate of students will decline. >>> Unless gliding aligns its independent operator rules with RA-Aus and RPL >>> requirements and lets motor glider operations occur beyond the club system >>> it will lose those people. It must embrace self launching and see any other >>> form of launch as ancient history. >>> The future of gliding requires the GFA to look into the future and at the >>> society around them, and recognise that the club, state association and >>> national association model is dead and re-model the relationship between >>> itself and the gliding fraternity. OR if that is too hard hand the whole >>> lot over to RA-Aus or ELAAA if they will have the disfunctional mess. >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Richard Frawley <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> i suggest you have a reader failure then, do try a reboot. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On 30 Jan 2017, at 6:08 PM, Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > My iPad sometimes tells me " this message has no content" >>>> > I'm surprised it didn't in this case. >>>> > >>>> > Mike >>>> > >>>> >> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:33 PM, Richard Frawley <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> interesting, but in the end perhaps irrelevant. >>>> >> >>>> >> Analysis will show that the base driving interest that was present in >>>> >> the primary age group during the halcyon period no longer exists and >>>> >> likely never will again. There was in the people of that time an >>>> >> unsatisfied latent demand to express themselves through control and >>>> >> command that flying gave purpose to. What developed via clubs was in >>>> >> response to an inherent demand and limitations of that time. >>>> >> >>>> >> That core need is no longer apparent in the wider community. Flying no >>>> >> longer offers natural attraction but to a small number of our >>>> >> population, which by observation is getting smaller and smaller. As >>>> >> such there is no longer the need for response in the manner that was >>>> >> previously provided. >>>> >> >>>> >> As to what gliding will be in 20 years time will matter little in terms >>>> >> of what the GFA does today. As needs change and new services are >>>> >> required then those services will be provisioned if demand is >>>> >> sufficient, as that is the way of things human. >>>> >> >>>> >> As new people do cycle into GFA management on a regular basis, that is >>>> >> a good thing, as flexibility and adaption are likely to be the nett >>>> >> result which is what i observed during my 3 years on the exec. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 3:50 PM, emillis prelgauskas >>>> >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Thank you all for the delightful conversation at ‘GFA negative >>>> >>> advertising……' >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I thought I’d start fresh, on some items that move away from that >>>> >>> thread above. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It surprises me that the ‘but you are bashing the GFA’ legion didn’t >>>> >>> pipe up. >>>> >>> Perhaps it was because GFA are bashing themselves up in their Pravda >>>> >>> list. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> There are diverse views across the glider pilot nation about what GFA >>>> >>> is: >>>> >>> - Some see GFA as being the whole of ’the sport'. >>>> >>> - Some see GFA as an administrative benefit or necessity to the sport >>>> >>> - Some (me) see this 67 year old organisation as having had its day >>>> >>> and now being in its own generated death throes. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> For all the reasons already enunciated by others - self destructive, >>>> >>> dictatorial, creating silos of irrelevant hierarchal positions which >>>> >>> will never be filled because there aren’t enough volunteers left, and >>>> >>> so on. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The biggest hurdle for GFA is the loss within itself in its corporate >>>> >>> knowledge - all the current incumbents came into a fully formed sport >>>> >>> and try to re-imagine it in their own image without a skeric of >>>> >>> understanding of how things came to be. (e.g. they don’t know what >>>> >>> ‘the Valentine Curve’ is) >>>> >>> ‘Those who don’t know their history are bound to repeat it’. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> With the benefit of longevity and a curiosity to track things (yes, I >>>> >>> am the dude who did the quantitative measuring of successful and >>>> >>> defunct clubs for the whole of Australia in the 1970s) I advise - >>>> >>> >>>> >>> - In 1949 the GFA was formed to be the barrier between glider pilots >>>> >>> and ‘the Department’ >>>> >>> - where glider pilots said ‘WE are the people who know how gliders >>>> >>> work, they are not power planes, so we set rules appropriate to us >>>> >>> - helped by the proposition (a la ‘The Castle’) that the Australian >>>> >>> Constitution does not regulate aviation (which didn’t exist when it >>>> >>> was first written), hence aviation is regulated federally only by the >>>> >>> consensus of the aviation community >>>> >>> >>>> >>> - That original bottom up driven model of regulation of the sport by >>>> >>> the sport, in the best examples of participatory democracy, lasted >>>> >>> until 1981 >>>> >>> - By then the sport had grown to 100 clubs, about 5000 pilots, and >>>> >>> enthusiasm and volunteer inputs to ‘our sport’ which got it there and >>>> >>> was propelling it even higher >>>> >>> - So GFA has never been ‘the sport’, it has always been the external >>>> >>> peripheral administrative element that we ‘needed to have’, and was >>>> >>> thus always kept as small as possible. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> - So in 1981 the world changed, yes Richard, you are right. The system >>>> >>> was re-written and has been re-written several more times since, by >>>> >>> incumbents of their day who saw a great sport, and thought >>>> >>> re-imagining it in their own image would both serve the sport and >>>> >>> themselves well. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> - So gliding the sport declined to 2000 pilots in 50 or so clubs, with >>>> >>> the unstated direction being the demise of the small clubs (less than >>>> >>> 20 members), leaving commercial servicing, schools and big clubs. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> We are indeed on track in that direction. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The barriers to achieving the goals of that objective (a more >>>> >>> ‘professional' sport) is that it is being pressed onto the old model >>>> >>> of volunteer cadre to achieve. >>>> >>> And people not being stupid, say things (as per the previous thread) ‘ >>>> >>> ‘why would I work at making my kind of gliding fail or be >>>> >>> inaccessible?’, and stuff like that. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Gliding is not a franchise that GFA owns. So people choose to bale out >>>> >>> when the onerous impositions exceed the benefit to them, assessed >>>> >>> against their definition of ‘the sport’. With many then going to other >>>> >>> sport aviation; a barrier to hoped-for flow the other way. (Their >>>> >>> tales of woe unimpress aviators from other sport) >>>> >>> >>>> >>> GFA does not control gliding, despite continuous threats and >>>> >>> intimidation issued by it/them. Glider pilots agree to follow rules >>>> >>> that make sense because these keep us alive. GFA is overlaying this >>>> >>> with rules addressing ‘fear of litigation’ against themselves, to be >>>> >>> shifted onto the volunteers. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The current conversation, either in its form today or some future >>>> >>> time, will result in the demise of the GFA. Glider pilots will find >>>> >>> their own way to fly the kind of sport each group within the sport >>>> >>> wants. >>>> >>> GFA doesn’t have the budget to follow through the promotion and >>>> >>> support to create the sport in their image. >>>> >>> All the attempts so far (since 1981 to date) have thoroughly failed as >>>> >>> noted above, and will continue to fail. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Pilots and clubs (particularly the small ones) are right now debating >>>> >>> internally what sort of sport they want. Paying lip service to ‘the >>>> >>> authority’ and getting on with flying safely is a reality since 1924 >>>> >>> (the oldest glider I have in my 2 dozen collection). >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Some pilots and clubs will decide to be ‘mucking about in boats’ style >>>> >>> volunteering, and will attract like minded people. >>>> >>> Some pilots and clubs will go ‘hire & fly’ with commercial support; >>>> >>> and ditto. >>>> >>> And all the other variants between. >>>> >>> And really few pilots will aspire to the GFA view of itself. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Welcome to the real world folks. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Emilis >>>> >>> (turn rant mode off) >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> >>> [email protected] >>>> >>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> >> [email protected] >>>> >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
_______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
