Nelson,
As you're correct, the group hasn't answered your question, how about we arm you with some tools to get yourself over the line. Being an application guy you're probably not so interested in the hardware required to provide an expected outcome J We have started with one known - expected duration. Now let's let you ponder a few unknowns: 1. Total/Max "hourly" current draw of all instrumentation, radio's, Flarm, aircraft systems(electronic dump valves for example) . You will have to research this and arrive at a number specific to your machine - which accounts for "duty cycles" of use for Radio, i.e. The radio uses X amount of power but you only use it for a total of 10 mins for the entire flight. 2. Level of redundancy in Power supply/delivery that "your" happy with. A common enterprise IT statement is N+1 - simply put enough battery capacity for the entire load plus 100% in reserve. So you should probably equate this in amp/hour instead of lumps of plastic and lead. How you arrive at the +1 can be different to the original supply. . What will you do if one battery fails should there be a delivery issue - flaky main fuse/switch comes to mind here. 3. How much do you want to spend? 4. How much weight penalty can you afford? - max non lifting weight of fuse etc. . Battery weight. 5. How much space do you have left to fit/jam stuff in to? . Battery sizing - both physical and amps/hour rating 6. Battery supply system - This is a system design consideration. If in multiples; will your systems (computers) restart if when changing over batteries (in flight) the interval is larger than reset time for the avionics? Hence the redundancy and number of batteries and system switching is also linked to design and requirements - not just duration. This also includes powered equipment (computers, loggers). Most equipment has a standby battery, either internally or external to allow for these small supply fluctuations. Now this all seems like a lot of effort, however if you want to get it right and not carry excess weight around the country side it's worth the time if you're serious. That being said, batteries really only come in a couple of glider consumable sizes and 2-3 will probably suffice if they are of the 9-15amp/hour capacity - depending on your system, redundancy requirements, total load etc. If you require 2 batteries to run the endurance required but take a 3rd as a spare and if the systems are wired separately, 2 batts in one supply and 1 in the other, the single battery will probably power your system (without shedding load - turning stuff off) for half the time - really inconvenient if you need those little computers and electric vario whilst grovelling around far from home. Hopefully you will have a think about this and decide how to proceed. If your machine has been designed well then the question really is about capacity vs duration of flight for task planning. Regards John From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nelson Handcock Sent: Saturday, 27 November 2010 5:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 47 Thanks - I read this through a few days ago and gather this document focusses on the cost not justifying the relatively low incident rate. However, (as some have pointed out on this forum) the more situational awareness that can be acheived the better, so it appears there is some support for the instrument. I note some discussion taking place about how to fit the instrument display in a small panel and the impracticalities facing balloon, HG & parasailers. My query relating to Task planning is not answered - is it a realistic consideration or not? (I'm relatively new to the sport so please excuse my ignorance) Nelson On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 4:30 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 (John Welsh) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:30:10 +0800 From: "John Welsh" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Nelson, Suggest you read this in detail: http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/CASA/ASAC_DP1001AS_Response.pdf Cheers, John Welsh From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nelson Handcock Sent: Saturday, 27 November 2010 2:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 Excuse what might appear a dumb question, but apart from the cost of installing & maintaining the instruments, what is the issue for gliding here? I take it an extra battery would be required - so I guess this has to be factored into task planning - how many do we need to ensure the instrument has power for the duration....? Say I wanted to do a XC task and I expected to be flying for 3-4 hours - will I need 1 or more 12 volt battery? Does weight become an issue? What else is the concern here? Thanks! On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 7:16 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: ADSB in gliders and sport aviation (John Welsh) 2. Re: ADSB in gliders and sport aviation (Mark Fisher) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:02:39 +0800 From: "John Welsh" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ADSB in gliders and sport aviation To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" PowerFLARM doesn't appear to provide ADSB Out only ADSB In. From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Simon Hackett Sent: Friday, 26 November 2010 4:02 PM To: Mal Bruce; AUS Soaring Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ADSB in gliders and sport aviation Hello Mal (et al), That device already exists. Its called a "PowerFLARM": http://www.butterfly.aero/powerflarm/fly/ and/or http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/traffic-monitor.htm This looks like its just about to go into full production. Note that its quoted as being able to run for 8 hours on six AA batteries (or from a glider battery, obviously, as an alternative). i.e. presumably the current draw isn't unreasonable. That doesn't magically solve the economic question, but it does suggest that the actual technology you require here (along with a Mode-S transponder, I guess) is certainly available (or nearly so). I must say that I find the notion of a combination Flarm and ADS-B to be highly appealing as a safety tool. Its eye-opening (literally) to see the thing the ADS-B in my Cirrus picks up before I see them out of the window. Regards, Simon On 26/11/2010, at 6:00 PM, Mal Bruce wrote: Could flarm and ADSB run on a single unit I recall having discussion with Nigel about this how about your expert opinion? Personally I 100% support technology being used for collision avoidance the cost of the units and current battery technology is minimal and the shared cost per aircraft far out weighs the cost of one life. I am sure that negotiated properly some costs could be shared by GFA and the federal government CASA after all they want "safe sky's for all"! Mal CASA Discussion Paper Response - Urgent Action Required To: GFA Members, Gliding Clubs and Regional Gliding Associations Urgent Action Required See the response by <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT %0A%0AEzMTk/index.html> %0AEzMTk/index.html> EzMTk/index.html> ASAC to CASA relating to <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT %0A%0AEzMjA/index.html> %0AEzMjA/index.html> EzMjA/index.html> Discussion Paper 1006AS In a nutshell, it proposes to mandate universal fitting of ADSB and Mode S to all aircraft for use in all classifications of airspace. This is completely unacceptable to sport aviation generally and gliding particularly. The GFA will be submitting a response which will express similar views to those of ASAC. It is important that as many responses as possible are submitted expressing concerns about the proposal and at the very least expressing strong support for the ASAC submission. Submissions can be made easily by individuals and club representatives via CASA website " <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT %0A%0AEzMjE/index.html> %0AEzMjE/index.html> EzMjE/index.html> Response to Regulatory Change Proposal". Detailed individual responses would be preferred but a response which just expresses dissatisfaction with CASA's consultation and then notes for each item that changes would make it acceptable, with a final comment supporting the ASAC paper will at least get the message across. It would greatly assist our position if each organisation can ensure a response on their behalf before 30 November and encourage all individual members to do the same. Apologies for the short notice. Phil McCann President <ATT00001..txt> _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3278 - Release Date: 11/25/10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20101 <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20101 %0A126/50bf5657/attachment.html> 126/50bf5657/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 20:16:23 +1100 From: Mark Fisher <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ADSB in gliders and sport aviation To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Guys, Swift Avionics will be the Australian agent for PowerFlarm. Will advertise when it's ready to sell. Cheers Mark On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 8:02 PM, John Welsh <[email protected]> wrote: > PowerFLARM doesn?t appear to provide ADSB Out only ADSB In. > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Simon Hackett > *Sent:* Friday, 26 November 2010 4:02 PM > *To:* Mal Bruce; AUS Soaring > *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] ADSB in gliders and sport aviation > > > > Hello Mal (et al), > > > > That device already exists. Its called a "PowerFLARM": > > > > http://www.butterfly.aero/powerflarm/fly/ > > > > and/or > > > > http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/traffic-monitor.htm > > > > This looks like its just about to go into full production. > > > > Note that its quoted as being able to run for 8 hours on six AA batteries > (or from a glider battery, obviously, as an alternative). > > > > i.e. presumably the current draw isn't unreasonable. > > > > That doesn't magically solve the economic question, but it does suggest > that the actual technology you require here (along with a Mode-S > transponder, I guess) is certainly available (or nearly so). > > > > I must say that I find the notion of a combination Flarm and ADS-B to be > highly appealing as a safety tool. Its eye-opening (literally) to see the > thing the ADS-B in my Cirrus picks up before I see them out of the window. > > > > Regards, > > Simon > > > > On 26/11/2010, at 6:00 PM, Mal Bruce wrote: > > > > > > Could flarm and ADSB run on a single unit I recall having discussion with > Nigel about this how about your expert opinion? > > > > Personally I 100% support technology being used for collision avoidance the > cost of the units and current battery technology is minimal and the shared > cost per aircraft far out weighs the cost of one life. > > > > I am sure that negotiated properly some costs could be shared by GFA and > the federal government CASA after all they want ?safe sky?s for all?! > > > > Mal > > > > > > *CASA Discussion Paper Response - Urgent Action Required* > > > > To: GFA Members, Gliding Clubs and Regional Gliding Associations > > > > *Urgent Action Required* > > > > See the response by *ASAC to CASA*<http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpP <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpP%0ATE zNTEzMTk/index.html> TEzNTEzMTk/index.html>relating to > *Discussion Paper 1006AS*<http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5Jmx <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5Jmx%0ApPTE zNTEzMjA/index.html> pPTEzNTEzMjA/index.html> > * * In a nutshell, it proposes to mandate universal fitting of ADSB and > Mode S to all aircraft for use in all classifications of airspace. This is > completely unacceptable to sport aviation generally and gliding > particularly. > > > > The GFA will be submitting a response which will express similar views to > those of ASAC. > > > > It is important that as many responses as possible are submitted expressing > concerns about the proposal and at the very least expressing strong support > for the ASAC submission. > > > > Submissions can be made easily by individuals and club representatives via > CASA website *"**Response to Regulatory Change Proposal*<http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5J <http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5J%0AmxpPTE zNTEzMjE/index.html> mxpPTEzNTEzMjE/index.html> > *"*. > > Detailed individual responses would be preferred but a response which just > expresses dissatisfaction with CASA's consultation and then notes for each > item that changes would make it acceptable, with a final comment supporting > the ASAC paper will at least get the message across. > > > > It would greatly assist our position if each organisation can ensure a > response on their behalf before 30 November and encourage all individual > members to do the same. Apologies for the short notice. > > > > Phil McCann > > President > > <ATT00001..txt> > > > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3278 - Release Date: 11/25/10 > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > -- Mark Fisher Managing Director Swift Performance Equipment PO Box 726, Lismore, NSW Australia Ph: +61 2 66221666 Fax: +61 2 66221633 www.spe.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20101 <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20101 %0A126/b7e46f4b/attachment.html> 126/b7e46f4b/attachment.html> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 ******************************************* -- Nelson Handcock 0409 149919 http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3282 - Release Date: 11/26/10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20101 127/43ef0e6b/attachment.html> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 47 ******************************************* -- Nelson Handcock 0409 149919 http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia
_______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
