Hi Sandy, after re-reading the latest changes I realized that in the text I proposed (Section 3):
Given this updated definition, Transform Type 5 in the "Transform Type Values" registry [IKEV2-IANA] has been renamed from "Extended Sequence Numbers (ESN)" to "Sequence Numbers (SN)" in the sense that it defines the properties of the sequence numbers in a broad sense. the word "sense" is used twice in a single sentence. In my native language (Russian) this is considered as a bad style and authors are advised to avoid it whenever possible. I'm not so sure about English, but if the rules are similar, then perhaps the text should be re-phrased. I rely on your opinion whether the current text is acceptable from style point of view. If it is problematic, then perhaps you can advise how to avoid the double use of "sense" here. Thank you. Regards, Valery. > Hi Valery and Deb*, > > *Deb, thank you for your review. We have noted your approval on the AUTH48 > page <https://www.rfc-editor.org/auth48/rfc9827>. > > Valery, we have updated the document as described — thank you for catching > the typo! As we believe the content is stable, we will ask IANA to update > their > registry notes to match the edited text in this document. > > Note that we have not yet marked your approval. We will check in for a final > approval once draft-ietf-ipsecme-g-ikev2 is also in AUTH48 and we have > updated the reference. > > The current files are available here: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.txt > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.pdf > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.html > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.xml > > Diffs of most recent updates only: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-lastdiff.html > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-lastrfcdiff.html (side by side) > > AUTH48 diffs: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-auth48diff.html > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-auth48rfcdiff.html (side by > side) > > Comprehensive diffs: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-diff.html > https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-rfcdiff.html (side by side) > > > Please let us know if you have any questions or if any further updates are > needed. > > Thank you, > Sandy Ginoza > RFC Production Center > > > > > On Aug 8, 2025, at 8:19 AM, Valery Smyslov <s...@elvis.ru> wrote: > > > > Hi Sandy, > > > > please, see inline. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sandy Ginoza <sgin...@staff.rfc-editor.org> > >> Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 5:23 PM > >> To: Valery Smyslov <s...@elvis.ru>; Deb Cooley <debcool...@gmail.com> > >> Cc: RFC Editor <rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org>; ipsecme-...@ietf.org; > >> ipsecme- cha...@ietf.org; Tero Kivinen <kivi...@iki.fi>; > >> auth48archive <auth48archive@rfc- editor.org> > >> Subject: [***SPAM***] [***SPAM***] [AD - Deb] Re: AUTH48: RFC-to-be > >> 9827 <draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-rename-esn-05> for your review > >> > >> Hi Valery and Deb*, > >> > >> *Deb, please review the change to the first bullet in Section 3 and > >> let us know if you approve. This update can be viewed in the AUTH48 diff > files (see below). > >> > >> Valery, thank you for your review and for the explanations you > >> provided. The current files are available here: > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.xml > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.txt > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.pdf > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827.html > >> > >> AUTH48 diffs (diffs since the document entered AUTH48): > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-auth48diff.html > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-auth48rfcdiff.html (side > >> by side) > >> > >> Comprehensive diffs: > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-diff.html > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-rfcdiff.html (side by > >> side) > >> > >> > >> A few notes: > >> > >> a) During IETF, we believe you mentioned double-checking potential > >> changes for the IANA registries set up by the docs in > >> https://www.rfc- editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C532. We believe > >> the IANA-related text in this document aligns with the IANA registry, > >> but please review and let us know if any updates are needed. > > > > Yes, I double-checked the IANA-related text in the draft and the text in the > registry and they match. > > The only difference I found is the use of "the" articles in the notes, > > which I > mentioned in item 7. > > > >> b) We have added a note to the AUTH48 page that this document should > >> be published together with draft-ietf-ipsecme-g-ikev2. The reference > >> will be updated once that document enters AUTH48. > > > > Got it, thank you. > > > >> c) Regarding item 5 below, please note that we did not make any > >> updates, as we don’t think the “implied meaning” is needed based on > >> your explanation. However, please let us know if you prefer the NEW text > you provided: > >> > >>> NEW: > >>> Given this updated definition, Transform Type 5 in the "Transform > >>> Type Values" registry [IKEV2-IANA] has been renamed from "Extended > >>> Sequence Numbers (ESN)" to "Sequence Numbers (SN)" with the implied > >>> meaning, that it defines the properties of the sequence numbers in a > broad sense. > >>> > >>> Is it better with regard to readability? > > > > I still think that clarification is helpful. Perhaps: > > > > NEW: > > Given this updated definition, Transform Type 5 in the "Transform > > Type Values" registry [IKEV2-IANA] has been renamed from "Extended > > Sequence Numbers (ESN)" to "Sequence Numbers (SN)" in the sense, > > that it defines the properties of the sequence numbers in a broad sense. > > > > The purpose of this clarification is to draw readers' attention, that > > while the new name is very similar to the old one (only the word > > "Extended" is removed), the meaning is completely different - > > previously this transform simply defined whether Extended Sequence > > Numbers are on or off, and now it defines a set of sequence numbers > properties, that cannot be reduced to a binary switch. > > > >> d) Regarding the updates related to item 7, we will ask IANA to > >> update their registry once AUTH48 completes and we are certain the text > are stable. > > > > Thank you. > > > >> Please review and let us know if any additional updates are needed. > > > > The text in the first bullet of Section 3 is good, but I wonder if > > this is not a typo: > > > > "Sequence numbers" in this definition are not necessarily the > > content of the Sequence Number field in the IPsec packets; they > > may also be some logical entities (e.g., counters) that could be > > constructed take some information that is not transmitted on the > > ^^^^^ > > wire into account. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not a typo and is grammatically > > correct, but should not it be "taking" instead of "take". > > > > Regards, > > Valery. > > > >> Thank you, > >> RFC Editor/sg > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 6, 2025, at 7:49 AM, Valery Smyslov <s...@elvis.ru> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Sandy, > >>> > >>> one more issue I came across. The title currently contains incorrect > >>> transform > >> type name: > >>> > >>> OLD: > >>> Renaming the Extended Sequence Number (ESN) Transform Type in the > >>> Internet Key Exchange Protocol Version 2 (IKEv2) > >>> > >>> NEW: > >>> Renaming the Extended Sequence Numbers (ESN) Transform Type in the > >>> Internet Key Exchange Protocol Version 2 (IKEv2) > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Valery. > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Valery Smyslov <s...@elvis.ru> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2025 6:13 PM > >>>> To: 'Sandy Ginoza' <sgin...@staff.rfc-editor.org> > >>>> Cc: 'RFC Editor' <rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org>; > >>>> 'ipsecme-...@ietf.org' <ipsecme- a...@ietf.org>; > >>>> 'ipsecme-cha...@ietf.org' <ipsecme-cha...@ietf.org>; 'kivi...@iki.fi' > <kivi...@iki.fi>; 'debcool...@gmail.com' > >>>> <debcool...@gmail.com>; 'auth48archive@rfc-editor.org' > >>>> <auth48archive@rfc- editor.org> > >>>> Subject: RE: [***SPAM***] [***SPAM***] Re: AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9827 > >>>> <draft- > >> ietf- > >>>> ipsecme-ikev2-rename-esn-05> for your review > >>>> > >>>> Hi Sandy, > >>>> > >>>> please find my answers inline. > >>>> > >>>> With regard to the publication process. I understand, that this > >>>> draft and > >>>> draft-ietf-ipsecme-g-ikev2-22 are parts of the C532 cluster, but > >>>> since there is no normative reference of > >>>> draft-ietf-ipsecme-g-ikev2-22 from this draft, then this draft can be > published before draft-ietf-ipsecme-g-ikev2-22. > >>>> On the other hand, there is an informative reference from this > >>>> draft to draft-ietf-ipsecme-g-ikev2-22 and I believe that for > >>>> readers it is better if the target of this reference is RFC rather than > >>>> I-D. > >>>> And since draft-ietf-ipsecme-g-ikev2-22 is about to enter active > >>>> editing state and hopefully be ready to be published soon, I think > >>>> that it makes sense to delay publication of this draft so that both > >>>> drafts are > >> published at > >>>> the same time, > >>>> and each of them reference the other as an RFC (and not as an I-D). > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Valery, > >>>>> > >>>>> We understand about the timing — thank you for letting us know. > >>>>> > >>>>> Hope your travels were smooth! Perhaps we’ll see you next week. > >>>>> > >>>>> RFC Editor/sg > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:23 AM, Valery Smyslov <s...@elvis.ru> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Sandy, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> sorry for radio silence. I did receive the AUTH48 message, but it > >>>>>> came in bad > >>>>> time :-) > >>>>>> I was busy with preparations to IETF 123, then was on the way to > >>>>>> Madrid and thus had no time to review. I'm afraid I won't be able > >>>>>> to do this during > >> IETF > >>>>> week as well, sorry. > >>>>>> Apologize for the delay, I plan to review the AUTH48 changes > >>>>>> after IETF 123 > >>>>> ends. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Valery. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Sandy Ginoza <sgin...@staff.rfc-editor.org> > >>>>>>> Sent: 17 июля 2025 г. 1:09 > >>>>>>> To: RFC Editor <rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org> > >>>>>>> Cc: s...@elvis.ru; ipsecme-...@ietf.org; > >>>>>>> ipsecme-cha...@ietf.org; kivi...@iki.fi; debcool...@gmail.com; > >>>>>>> auth48archive@rfc-editor.org > >>>>>>> Subject: [***SPAM***] Re: AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9827 > >>>>>>> <draft-ietf-ipsecme- > >>>>>>> ikev2-rename-esn-05> for your review > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Valery, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We do not believe we have heard from you regarding the questions > below. > >>>>>>> Please review and let us know how the items below may be resolved. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thank you, > >>>>>>> RFC Editor/sg > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jul 11, 2025, at 4:46 PM, rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Authors, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> While reviewing this document during AUTH48, please resolve (as > >>>>>>>> necessary) the following questions, which are also in the XML file. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1) <!-- [rfced] Please insert any keywords (beyond those that > >>>>>>>> appear in the title) for use on https://www.rfc-editor.org/search. > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> replay protection > >>>> anti-replay > >>>> IPsec > >>>> ESP > >>>> AH > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 2) <!-- [rfced] Is the second paragraph the current definition? > >>>>>>>> The first paragraph makes us think the definition is current. > >>>>>>>> However, the third paragraph (indicating it needs > >>>>>>>> clarification) makes us think it is the old definition. Please > >>>>>>>> consider adding text to indicate whether it is the old or new > definition. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Original: > >>>>>>>> 3. Extending the Semantics of Transform Type 5 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This document extends the semantics of transform type 5 in > >>>>>>>> IKEv2 to the following definition. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Transform type 5 defines the set of properties of sequence > >>>>>>>> numbers of IPsec packets of a given SA when these packets enter > the network. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This definition requires some clarifications. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Perhaps: > >>>>>>>> 3. Extending the Semantics of Transform Type 5 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This document extends the semantics of Transform Type 5 in > >>>>>>>> IKEv2 to be defined as follows: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Transform Type 5 defines the set of properties of sequence > numbers > >>>>>>>> of IPsec packets of a given SA when these packets enter the > network. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The updated definition is clarified as follows: > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> The second paragraph is the current (new) definition. > >>>> Thus, the proposed text is clearer and I'm fine with it. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 3) <!-- [rfced] We are having trouble parsing this sentence. > >>>>>>>> Please provide an update if our suggested text is incorrect. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Original: > >>>>>>>> * By "sequence numbers" here we assume logical entities (like > >>>>>>>> counters) that can be used for replay protection on receiving > >>>>>>>> sides. In particular, these entities are not necessarily the > >>>>>>>> content of the Sequence Number field in the IPsec packets, but > may > >>>>>>>> be constructed using some information, that is not necessaryly > >>>>>>>> transmitted. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Perhaps: > >>>>>>>> * The use of "sequence numbers" implies that logical entities (like > >>>>>>>> counters) can be used for replay protection on receiving > >>>>>>>> sides. In particular, these entities are not necessarily the > >>>>>>>> content of the Sequence Number field in the IPsec packets, as they > >>>>>>>> may be constructed using some information that is not > transmitted. > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> I would propose the following text: > >>>> > >>>> NEW: > >>>> * "Sequence numbers" in this definition are not necessary the > >>>> content of the Sequence Number field in the IPsec packets, > >>>> but may also be some logical entities (e.g., counters) that might > >>>> be constructed taking in account some information that is not > >>>> transmitted on > >> the > >>>> wire. > >>>> > >>>> Feel free to propose better text if this is still not clear or > >>>> grammatically > incorrect. > >>>> The point is that while we have "Sequence Number" field in the > >>>> IPsec packets, the "sequence numbers" we are talking about are not > >>>> necessary the content of this field, but may be constructed using > additional sources. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 4) <!-- [rfced] We have updated this sentence as described below. > >>>>>>>> Please let us know if any corrections are needed. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Original: > >>>>>>>> * The properties are interpreted as a characteristic of IPsec SA > >>>>>>>> packets, and not as a result of a sender actions. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Current: > >>>>>>>> * The properties are interpreted as characteristics of IPsec SA > >>>>>>>> packets rather than the results of sender actions. > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> This change is OK. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 5) <!-- [rfced] For readability, we have updated the sentence > >>>>>>>> as shown below. Please let us know if any corrections are > >>>>>>>> needed. In addition, please consider whether the abbreviated > >>>>>>>> form of "SN" should be plural (i.e., Sequence Numbers (SNs) - > >>>>>>>> we recognize that ESN was singular even though "Numbers" was > plural). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Original: > >>>>>>>> Given this definition, transform type 5 in the IANA registries > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> IKEv2 [IKEV2-IANA] is renamed from "Extended Sequence Numbers > >>>> (ESN)" > >>>>>>>> to "Sequence Numbers (SN)" with the meaning, that it defines > >>>>>>>> the properties the sequence numbers would have. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Current: > >>>>>>>> Given this updated definition, Transform Type 5 in the > >>>>>>>> "Transform Type Values" registry [IKEV2-IANA] has been renamed > >>>>>>>> from "Extended > >>>> Sequence > >>>>>>>> Numbers (ESN)" to "Sequence Numbers (SN)". > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> I still believe that the clarification is helpful. In other words, > >>>> the name of this Transform Type is too short to be absolutely clear. > >>>> Before IETF LC the proposed new name for this transform type was > >>>> "Sequence Numbers Properties (SNP)", which would be clearer, but > >>>> apparently was grammatically incorrect. Another proposed name was > >>>> "Properties of Sequence Numbers (PSN)", but eventually it was > >>>> decided to use simple "Sequence Numbers (SN)" with a clarification > >>>> what this name means. I also don't think that abbreviation in > >>>> plural form (SNs) is justified, since this would break the rule > >>>> that all abbreviation is always in all-capital letters. > >>>> > >>>> Thus, my preference is: > >>>> > >>>> NEW: > >>>> Given this updated definition, Transform Type 5 in the "Transform > >>>> Type Values" registry [IKEV2-IANA] has been renamed from "Extended > >>>> Sequence Numbers (ESN)" to "Sequence Numbers (SN)" with the implied > >>>> meaning, that it defines the properties of the sequence numbers in a > broad sense. > >>>> > >>>> Is it better with regard to readability? > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 6) <!-- [rfced] "their monotonic increase" is not easily > >>>>>>>> parsed. May we update as follows for readability? > >>>>>>>> Note that this text appears in the definitions for values 0 and 1. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Original: > >>>>>>>> They can also be used with protocols that rely > >>>>>>>> on sequence numbers uniqueness (like [RFC8750]) or their > monotonic > >>>>>>>> increase (like [RFC9347]). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Perhaps: > >>>>>>>> They can also be used with protocols that rely > >>>>>>>> on sequence numbers uniqueness (e.g., [RFC8750]) or > monotonically > >>>>>>>> increasing sequence numbers (e.g., [RFC9347]). > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> This change is good. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 7) <!-- [rfced] Note that we have updated the IANA > >>>>>>>> Considerations to reduce redundancy throughout. Please review > >>>>>>>> carefully and let us know if any updates are needed. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> You can review the changes by looking through a diff of the > >>>>>>>> IANA Considerations section: > >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-diff.html > >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9827-rfcdiff.html > >>>>>>>> (side-by-side view) > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> These changes are generally OK. I noticed that the text of the > >>>> notes in this section to be added to IANA registries now mismatches > >>>> the notes that are actually added as a result of IANA actions made > >>>> when this I-D was sent to the RFC Editor (with regard of the > >>>> articles). I think that this can be sorted out with IANA. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 8) <!-- [rfced] Throughout the text, the following terminology > >>>>>>>> appears to be used inconsistently. We updated to use the form > >>>>>>>> on the left to align with RFC 7296. Please let us know any > objections. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Transform Type vs transform type Transform ID vs transform ID > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> I'm OK with this change, thank you. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 9) <!-- [rfced] Please review the "Inclusive Language" portion > >>>>>>>> of the online Style Guide > >>>>>>>> <https://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide/part2/#inclusive_languag > >>>>>>>> e> and let us know if any changes are needed. Updates of this > >>>>>>>> nature typically result in more precise language, which is > >>>>>>>> helpful for readers. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Note that our script did not flag any words in particular, but > >>>>>>>> this should still be reviewed as a best practice. > >>>>>>>> --> > >>>> > >>>> I re-read the draft and I believe that it satisfies the "Inclusive > >>>> Language" > >>>> requirements. > >>>> > >>>> One more points I found. > >>>> > >>>> 10) [EESP] should reference draft-ietf-ipsecme-eesp instead of > >>>> draft-klassert- ipsecme-eesp (it was adopted as WG document a while > >>>> ago). > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Valery. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Thank you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> RFC Editor > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jul 11, 2025, at 4:43 PM, rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *****IMPORTANT***** > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Updated 2025/07/11 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> RFC Author(s): > >>>>>>>> -------------- > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Instructions for Completing AUTH48 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Your document has now entered AUTH48. 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Smyslov > >>>>>>>> WG Chair(s) : Yoav Nir, Tero Kivinen > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Area Director(s) : Deb Cooley, Paul Wouters > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>> > > -- auth48archive mailing list -- auth48archive@rfc-editor.org To unsubscribe send an email to auth48archive-le...@rfc-editor.org
