Commenting on comments....not on the proposal yet.... On Sun, 2002-11-10 at 14:01, Leo Sutic wrote: > Peter Donald wrote: > > Hi, > > > > When this was discussed last time there was points that were raised that > need > > to be addressed before any such proposal goes forward.
where the reasoning was along the lines of "don't create a PMC for a project that suffers from scope creep and contains lots of stuff that should end up in other areas", right? I thought so too. But I've changed my mind. Quoting you and me: "> > No option is currently viable at the moment. Currently Avalon has no > > scope boundaries and thus would not make a good top level project. > > agreed! IOW, the legal argument is also a strong argument for setting up > firm scope boundaries. right? Thats the first step in the process. Hence why I am involved in Apache Commons ;)" I now believe the first step in the process is the formation of a PMC that will deal with the process, including detailing scope boundaries in the form of a project charter. Greg confirmed tht these things do not have to be decided upon yet when the PMC is created. Setting up a PMC is the first point. IOW, The board says "you people go and worry about 'all that' now, please. Here's are the means to do so", where the 'all that' is what we need to think about. > It would be unlikely > > that these issues could be resolved in the timeframe proposed. Especially > > given that some of the interested parties may not read their mail before > the > > vote is closed. As it is a major change I don't think it is appropriate to > > try and rush through anything without everyones involvement. agreed! Is there a particular reason why people would not read their mail in time to be involved if they want? The timeframe seems otherwise reasonable to me.......this stuff's been coming for some time now and it's more than a week 'till the 18th... > > I expect to see at least half of our code migrate to Apache Commons. Of the > > remainder I expect to see a large proportion move to incubator (or some to > > Apache Commons sandbox if it exists and some to incubator). definately. I think we have consensus on that. > Hopefully this > > will see a return to access based on merit and thus remove the source of > > conflict by resticting access appropriately. are you saying that a PMC should not be formed at this stage because composing that PMC of all committers means people get a say in how this moving and restructuring stuff works, where they wouldn't if we move stuff first and then form the PMC? why would the two yield different results? Right now we have a sort of de-facto PMC that does this kind of stuff, right? Sure as hell the Jakarta PMC isn't "restricting access appropriately" within avalon :) I think I don't get what you mean.... > > At that stage it may be more appropriate to migrate to a top level project. Top-level project in the sense of lots of exposure, exponential community growth, influx of new people and new ideas....I'd say we can avoid that by putting up a page at avalon.apache.org that says no more than "Under Construction". I also bet that the Jakarta PMC will allow us to keep our mailing lists and site as they are for some time ;) > I disagree. Two reasons: > > 1) When deciding what to move to commons / incubator we must have a > clear picture of what Avalon should be. That requires some form of > leadership > and I believe a PMC will give us that. (By formalizing the decision > process and > making it impossible for the small non-communicating fiefdoms we have now > to exist.) regardless of the need of leadership, "what avalon should be" is defined in the project charter. IIUC, a project charter is drafted by the committers, then proposed by the PMC to the board, then approved by the board (or not). It strikes me as a good idea to have the PMC that makes the proposal be an Avalon PMC instead of the Jakarta PMC. > 2) If we have to wait until code migration stops before setting up a PMC it > will take forever. long live refactoring! > I say we get this PMC set up and start cleaning up > Avalon. hear, hear! :D > And, sign me up for that PMC list, Stephen. Me too, please, cheers, - Leo Simons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:avalon-dev-unsubscribe@;jakarta.apache.org> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:avalon-dev-help@;jakarta.apache.org>
