I have never heard of paying for a dispensation and do not believe a set price was made by Rome. The term indulgence is not the right term. An indulgence refers to giving something of value to the church in return for forgiveness (a ticket to heaven). These forms of corruption lead to the reformation and no longer exist.
Perhaps some of our other researchers could chime in on this. Rick Richard Francis Pimentel Spring, TX Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande, Bretanha, and Ponta Delgada, Sao Miguel, Acores From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Perry Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?) to the local priest. Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin marriage? Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official? The reason I ask is that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin mind you but the cousin of his first wife. He fought with the priest for weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it. The family joke for all these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs. Great grandpa never set foot in a church again. David On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote: I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder of the two. The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the time. I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so far. So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far more common. The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids. In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some were 20 or more years apart. As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I primarily work. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: <[email protected] <javascript:> > Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am To: [email protected] <javascript:> Yukon, I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage. They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity. However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to check on that. I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl. I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing. This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, "The Princes of Ireland" - a great historical fiction. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: [email protected] <javascript:> Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am To: [email protected] <javascript:> I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in my Azorean roots. In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] <javascript:> writes: First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico. And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira. What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever saw it before. In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, not to mention for others, based on this fact. I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results in children. My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com <http://www.dholmes.com/> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: nancy jean baptiste <[email protected] <javascript:> > Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55 pm To: azores group <[email protected] <javascript:> > My Furtado Cardoso great grandparents were first cousins on Pico....their line is FILLED with cousin marriages....over and over through the generations. While there are no obvious problems from this I suspect that things like diabetes and heart disease are increased in these close lines. their daughter married a man whose parents were from Sao Jorge and Santa Maria....their son, my father married my mom whose complete line is from Sao Jorge......I've found many surnames between my mom's Sao Jorge line and my dad's fathers Sao Jorge line......cousins? Maybe distant ones....I don't know. I read that Flores has the highest incidence of Machado Joseph disease found among the Azorean people and it is attributed to the frequency of inbreeding. Sometimes things are ok....sometimes not. Nancy Jean _____ Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:42:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree From: [email protected] <javascript:> To: [email protected] <javascript:> Doug, Cousin Marriages are common on Flores because it is such a small Island. I have cousin marriages on both sides of my family tree. If the genes are good, superior decendants can be produced. I have some first cousins on my father's side that married. One of their children married the child of another first cousin of mine making them second cousins who married. This couple had 4 children all of whom are college graduates. One of these four children is now a professor at Boston University. John Vasconcelos On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:31 PM, <[email protected] <javascript:> > wrote: I ran across an old document I had translated about 15 years ago and took another look. My first notation was that this couple was related in the second degree. I never noted whether it was by consanguinity or affinity. But usually if I didn't note it, it was by consanguinity. Well, my second look proved important because I had missed an important word "duplicado" (duplicate). In case you never knew, this means not only they were first cousins, but first cousins in two different ways. If you think about it, that means they each shared all four of their grandparents. They had no ancestors other than what they shared. Talk about in-breeding. Who was this couple? It was the Capitão-mor of Angra. The highest military rank available. His name was Manuel Homem da Costa e Noronha Ponce de Leão. Find him in any Terceira nobility book to see his illustrious ancestry. One might wonder whether their children were born healthy. Well, I don't know all the facts yet, but I do know they had 10 children. Three possibly died young - at least I haven't yet noticed them listed as adults at marriage or as godparents. A few seemed to have average life spans of at least 60 years. Not yet sure of the rest. I do know they have many descendants today, including some of my cousins. Just think how this combined DNA might affect the Family Finder results. I just thought it was interesting. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico & Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com <http://www.dholmes.com/> -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. 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