Deb, I think that you voiced the reason that, at least some of us, did not respond. Science is science, and conjecture is not. We still haven't gotten any definition from qualified individuals explaining exactly what these groups actually are. Is a person who is grouped as English really English or are they Danes, Saxons, Normans, oh, and yes, are they Africans? Is a "Chilean" white, brown, black, or red? Is a "middle-eastern" a Jew, an Arab, a Turk, a Babylonian, a Persian, or a North African - Is an African black, "middle-eastern," or white? There are still way too many unanswered questions for anyone to be able to discuss this subject with any degree of integrity...
On Thursday, May 8, 2014 3:46:24 PM UTC-4, DBM wrote: > > Hi Doug, you asked why the group members aren't responding to your e-mail > and suggest it may be because of the shock of not being lily white. I feel > compelled to respond. > > I can't speak for anyone but myself, but being shocked about my African > ancestry and not being "lily white" is no part of my silence. I not only > think it is logical, much as you articulated, that some of my ancestors > would be from Africa; I also think it is exciting to see the DNA map and > all of the places that are reflected in my DNA. > > My reason for not joining the dialogue is because I am an academic, whose > training is rooted in the citing of sources and an almost knee-jerk > reaction to weigh the credibility of all information placed in front of me. > With the absence of that type of supporting detail in your message, I > would be at loss as to how I should respond. > > I appreciate that you approach many of the topics on this list with great > enthusiasm and are willing to offer your insights to help other group > members. In this particular instance, I am curious about the assumptions > on which your statements are anchored. Don't get me wrong. I am not > suggesting what you wrote is bunk. I don't have the expertise to evaluate > its veracity. I just can't accept it wholesale without supporting > documentation. For example, you say: > > all it takes is one ancestor from the late 1600s to be from England or > modern UK to appear as 1% European Islands DNA > > > Is that statement based on research that you could provide for us? Is it > based on reading you have done but don't remember exactly where? Or is it > a less-than-precise statement which serves to make the point that it > doesn't take very many people from a particular region to change one's DNA > map? Any is fine, but it would be helpful to understand the foundation to > your general statements, so I know how to evaluate it on the continuum from > opinion to fact. > > That is my reluctance to join in a conversation. I hope it is taken in > the spirit in which it is intended. > > Deb, a.k.a. looking4roots51 > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 8, 2014, at 10:36 AM, <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > > I wrote the following privately, but I think others might find it > interesting. > > I wonder why more people are not joining in with the conversation. I > thought after I went into to much detail that there would be something by > others. > > I think these results are way more recent, but old at the same time. > > For instance, probably the biggest thing that scared people to find is a > black ancestor. There is no doubt about it, you and I must have a black > ancestor to get those results. If we think about all the slavery in the > Azores, that certainly seems logical. I know many of my ancestors owned > slaves. Often it mentions the origins of those slaves in a general way like > the Congo. > > Then we have many pais incognitos for expostos and for single women. Then > I have documented two huge lines of slave descendants for both Pico and > Terceira. Then you see the generally darker skin tones of the people from > the Mediterranean basin which can be both middle eastern and African > influences. > > By new and old I mean we can have an ancestor with DNA from a combination > of Africa and Middle Eastern and found either as a slave or as an immigrant > to the Azores from the 1600s. Maybe a legitimized exposto, son or daughter > of a slave and her master was born in 1700. I don't have any legitimized > ancestors that recent, but I have certainly seen them and the mother is > incognita. > > As for another new and old exampl all it takes is one ancestor from the > late 1600s to be from England or modern UK to appear as 1% European Islands > DNAe,. And he might not be full English DNA, but might have been in > Portugal for a couple generations with just 25% English DNA, but then you > have 3 or 4 of them and now you get to 1% DNA from the year 1675 or so. > > > For Jewish DNA, that is falling into the one I think we see as North > Africa around Morocco and as around Jordan and Israel. I'm getting it on my > mother's side in Hungary for Jordan, and on my father's side as maybe > Berber or Jew from Morocco. > > If Sao Miguel is anything like Pico, there are many early settlers from > just after the forced baptisms as new Christians. We see it from all the > Y-DNA testing that is 100% proof they were there. I have one of these > ancestors from Pico named Baltazar Vieira from Sao Mateus in the late > 1500s, thanks to Antonio Faria's Y-DNA test. He has jumped head first into > all this and is finding some fascinating evidence and information that he > sends me privately. Then I have another with the name Bairos from Pico, I > think. Will have to double check if he's my direct line, but I have many > named Bairos and assume I must have some connection to him. But that > doesn't actually mean Bairos is his direct paternal line. It could be from > his mother who might be an old Christian. > > I'm seeing anywhere from 3 to 15% of DNA from my other matches that are > from the middle east or north Africa and some of that is certainly Jewish > DNA, if not most of it. While that number isn't huge, it is consistent and > tells us there was a small population of Jews in Pico and probably the > other islands. > > One factor is that we lose 50% of our ancestors' DNA with each generation. > So are we losing more of our Jewish DNA by chance? Was the percentage > actually higher and is now fading away? Could be. We need more people doing > the Y-DNA test to answer this better. I suppose the mt-DNA test will also > serve the same purpose. > > I think this is the type of thing others would like to comment on, but > might still not be willing to speak up if what they found is too shocking > that their DNA isn't lily white. > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > www.dholmes.com > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] MyOrigins surprise findings from Family > Finder DNA testing > From: <[email protected] <javascript:>> > Date: Wed, May 07, 2014 9:32 am > To: [email protected] <javascript:> > > Commenting further in regards to yesterday's new release of Family Tree > DNA's Population Finder that is now called MyOrigins, maybe a bigger > surprise is that my father's got his European DNA breakdown of 87% as > follows: > > - North Mediterranean Basin - 52% (From Portugal to Greece on the > north side of the Mediterranean Sea) > - > - European Coastal Plain - 20% (centered around Switzerland, Eastern > France, Southern Germany, Western Austria) > - > - European Coastal Islands - 15% (England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland) > > Of this, the surprising, but confirming information is that it explains > the red and blonde hair, tall features we have on both our Pico and > Terceira lines. My father's grandmother from Sao Roque do Pico had flaming > red hair which carried on to two of my siblings. I think my grandfather was > blonde and I think his sister was also blonde. > > I've heard that Northern Portugal's population was influenced by the > Visigoths, a Germanic tribe and then there are the documented Flemish > immigrants in the Azores which can fall into the above Coastal Plain area. > And we have the Celts with mixtures of Viking/Danish DNA in modern UK. > > So what all this means is that maybe there was a heavier dose of modern UK > peoples that ended up finding their way into Portugal and accounting for > 20% of my father's DNA. Maybe the close ties between England and Portugal > from the time of King Joao I in the 1400s can account for this. > > So I think testing each family member with the Family Finder test will > help everyone gain further insight into the populations in the Azores and > anywhere else their origins lie. I originally thought that my own Family > Finder test was enough to represent my own generation, but now I see that > it would be very helpful to have more of my generation get the test. And of > course, testing the oldest generations still living is a must. In my case, > testing a cousin who has none of our Chilean ancestors would be helpful. So > I need to see if I can work on that more. > > Doug da Rocha Holmes > Sacramento, California > Pico & Terceira Genealogist > 916-550-1618 > www.dholmes.com > > > -- > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the > right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my > membership." > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Azores Genealogy" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. > > -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
