Randall: After years of just reading for meaning (hence the writing of a dictionary) while ignoring grammar, I find these forays into grammar both interesting and educational.
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Randall Buth <[email protected]> wrote: > >>As an example, if a student asked permission from a > teacher to leave a class, would they use אצאה/אעזבה נא, or הבה לי > לעזוב/לצאת, or תן לי לעזוב/לצאת, or הניחה לי לעזוב/צאת, or הרשני לצאת, or > what?” > >can you give any Biblical examples of any of those? > > That was my question, the list is intended to stimulate discussion. > Something of the following was desired. > > Which structures were available? > The list was intended to stimulate, not be inclusive or exclusive. > But surely you could find first person prefix forms with +ah for statments > of permission? > E.g. Gen 19.8 אוציאה- נא > Jud 15.1 אבאה אל אשתי > They were the 'corrrect' or 'best' answer in the list. > Looking at Tanakh, this is a special case that afflicts only the first person singular and plural yiqtol verbs. The -H suffix gives the meaning “let me …” where it is usually, though not always, followed by נא. Where the -H suffix is overridden by a pronominal suffix, the נא is present. This is the form asking for permission. > > הבה is used in situations like Gen 11.3, 4, 7, and Jud 20:7 as well as > singular situations like Gen 29.21 הבה לי (where its original meaning > 'give' > fits) and Gen 38.16 הבה נא אבוא אליך, but is it good for a classroom? I > would think not, unless it might have provided a formalism for student to > teacher. But the overall structure is not attested [while נתן 'give' is > attested with a following infinitive, the relatively rare יהב 'give' is > not], so it is best not to use. The point is to show that there may have > been such a structure, to give some awareness of potential holes in system. > From what I found, הבה Let ... (followed by a yiqtol verb), not from the root יהב . It is found only four times, Genesis 11:3, 4, 7, Exodus 1:10. All the other times where I found הבה used, it is used in the general context of “to hand over, to deliver” an object or a service. This use is from the root יהב. > > Similarly with תן 'give' and הנח 'place'. both verbs are attested in > contexts where they can mean 'allow, give permission'. See Jud 15.1 above: > ולא נתנו אביה לבוא 'and her father did not give him [=permit him] to "go > in".' There are multiple permutations, of course, תן, תן לי, תנה, תנה לי, > תן > נא, תן נא לי, הנח, הנח לי, הניחה לי, הנח נא, הנח נא לי, הניחה נא לי. I > doubt > whether all of the permutations are attested, I haven't checked. It is open > for constructive discussion. In any case the imperative with an infinitive > is not used for requesting permission in the Bible. > > The last item הרשני לצאת 'permit me to go out' was a purposeful example of > potential Late Biblical > Hebrew. Checking on this here, I find that a noun (רשיון) is attested in > Ezra and the verb is attested in DSS (Dam. 11.20). Should one exclude it, > or include it? Personally, I don't see any problem with it and it fits the > SecondTemple language, but I don't use it in class (nor would I assume that > Brian would, specifically because there are people out there looking for > excuses not to use this methodology.) [PS: The question of how much Second > Temple 'high' Hebrew to allow is a policy question with no 'right' answer. > On the side, I certainly disagree with the assumption that there were no > mother-tongue Hebrew speakers in the SecondTemple period. There certainly > were, and those in the last two to four generations with competency in all > the necessary data and skills to deal with the question agree with me. But > if you wish to differ, please start another thread. Your difference has > been > duly noted, and registered as 'doubtful'.] > There is no credible evidence I have seen to support this assertion. Emotionally, I’d prefer it to be true, but with the lack of evidence I have to conclude it to be unfounded. > > >The closest I can > > think of would be “May I go out?” אצא נא החוצה > Yes, אצא נא החוצה works. > And I am perfectly happy with 1 Sam 22.3 as PARTIAL support. Of course, it > is a third person quotation where the 'ah' ending was not an option. So for > the first person one might expect both אצאה נא and אצא נא and also אצאה > and potentially even אצא. Lamed-alef verbs frequently omit the -ah option, > but they also include them. And other verbs more frequently use the -ah > ending, (lamed-yod, a.k.a. lamed-he, excepted, of course). > > On vocab, לצאת is more appropriate than לעזוב in most situations. > Well, from meaning, the first means exiting, the second the idea of leaving behind, abandoning. In requesting permission to exit a room, the second doesn’t fit. > > The point of this excercise is to see an area where bHebrew may prefer to > handle something syntactically, e.g. אכתבה "I would write [in an > appropriate > context='let me write']" rather than lexically with a list of potential > idioms. > > The whole process is quite heuristic Many a Hebrew teacher will enjoy the > process when teaching classes communicatively. As a benefit, they will end > up controlling Hebrew much better than merely extrapolating from > 'grammar-translation'. > > -- > Randall Buth, PhD > www.biblicallanguagecenter.com > Biblical Language Center > Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life > > In closing, the request “May I leave the room?” is not found in Tanakh, so any such request would have to be reconstructed. Karl W. Randolph. _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
