Jerry: What is your experience with metallurgy? Have you ever done blacksmithing? Coppersmithing? (Just to name two things I have done.)
On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry Shepherd <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi Rolf, > > > > I’m sure George will have his own reply, but I’d like to chime in on this > as well. Initially, let me observe that it doesn’t really help your case > when the verses you list in support of your position say the exact opposite > of what you summarize them as saying. > > > > Rq( as a verb occurs 12x in the Hebrew Bible. With 5 of those occurrences, > Exod 39:3 The purpose here is to make thin, so that gold threads can be cut out to weave into garments. This can be done by hammering, or other methods. > ; Num 17:3, 4 To spread them out into flat plates, done by hammering. > ; Isa 40:19 This is covering with gold leaf. Gold leaf is spread out, not hammered, but softly rubbed into place. This example is enough to call your whole argument into question. > ; and Jer 10:9 Again the spreading of silver and gold leaf onto a statue. > , there is no debate at all > as to what is being denoted by the verb: a process of hammering, beating, > and stamping out metal. Wrong. > That leaves 7 passages. > > > > 2 Sam 22:43 refers to trampling out an at least semi-solid substance, the > mire or clay of the streets. > > That has been pulverized into fine dust and blown away as clouds of dust. Read the whole verse. When clay is dried out, it then can be ground into a dust, then it is an especially fine dust that just floats in the air. > > > Job 37:18, as you noted, refers to how Yahweh spreads out the clouds or > the dust. But the verse goes on to say that the result is that the > clouds/dust become “hard as a mirror of cast bronze.” As I said, it does > not help your case when your proof texts are more in line with your > opponents’ position than with yours. The rq( is a process of making > something solid. > > This verse can be translated “…as firm as a vision in a mirror” not a strong example for your case. > > > In Ps 136:6, Yahweh spreads out the earth, a solid substance, something > that can be walked on. > > The above two verses fit with my understanding that the main meaning of the word is to spread out, make an expanse. > > > In Isa 42:5, again Yahweh spreads out the earth, a solid substance. > > > > In Isa 44:24, again Yahweh spreads out the earth, a solid substance. > > These last two verses fit with my understanding, and against yours in that you say must include hammering or similar action. > > > In Ezek 6:11, Ezekiel is told to stamp his feet (presumably on the ground, > a solid substance). > > > > In Ezek 25:6, the Ammonites are rebuked for having stamped their feet (on > the ground) with malice against the Israelites. > > Seeing as this is late Biblical Hebrew, written in Babylon, could Ezekiel’s understanding of the term have shifted from what was meant before? This use is not found elsewhere. > > > So, we have 12 occurrences, none of which have to do with spreading out > some ethereal, airy, gaseous substance. Rq( refers to hammering, stamping, > beating out. > > > > The noun rqy( occurs 15x. 9 of those occurrences are in Gen 1 (not just > the3x you mentioned). Since these are the ones in question, I’ll look at > the other occurrences first. > > > > Nothing can really be told one way or the other from the occurrences in Ps > 19:2; 150:1; and Dan 12:3. But when you say “the parallels suggest a > non-solid state,” you are begging the question. > > > > For the occurrences in Ezekiel (1:22-26), on the one hand, you try to > downplay the occurrences as being used in “visions where literal things of > three dimensions are used in a symbolic way to describe heavenly things.” > On > the other hand, you try to appeal to it later in some weird way to compare > the wings of the living creatures with the wings of the birds. But there > is no comparison. As we can easily tell from other ANE texts and artwork, > the wings of the living creatures are holding up the rqy(. They are > sky-bearers. And the throne of Yahweh is resting on the rqy(. The rqy( > in Ezek 1 is a solid substance. > > What sort of solid substance? A glass dome? Ezekiel saw something for which he hadn’t the words to describe them. To me, this doesn’t sound like metal plates. > > > Of course, the occurrences in Gen 1 (vv. 6, 7 (3x), 8, 14, 15, 17, 20) are > the ones that are under dispute in this discussion. If the occurrences of > the verb rq( and the noun rQy( are given their full weight, we should > expect that the the rqy( in Gen 1 is, indeed, a solid substance. When you > add to this that this is reflective of the cosmosgraphy of the ancient > world (as well-demonstrated as it is, e.g., in the volume recommended to > you by Martin Shield), then I think George’s case is pretty well taken – > “That’s what the text says.” That works if and only if one has a good grasp of the language. Just because a verb is used at times for the spreading out of solid objects, does not rule it out for the spreading out of non-solid objects. You haven’t made your case. In fact, two of the verses indicate that what is being spread out are non-solid. Some of the objects being spread out are done by means other than hammering, therefore hammering is not an essential part of the meaning. In conclusion, the expanse in Genesis 1 can be other than a solid object. And its uses in context are that it isn’t a solid object. > > Blessings, > Jerry Shepherd > Taylor Seminary > Edmonton, Alberta > [email protected] > Karl W. 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