On 24/01/2008, David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Caveat: I'm an amateur in this area who knows a bit because I run a MythTV > system. Be polite if you correct me.
It's my New Year Resolution to be polite in emails. My experience of the EPG issue goes all the way back to 1992, when I was part of a team that totally computerised and automated the system the ITV companies used, which was quite complicated because it was lots of companies and the network was also used to deliver content from company to company for later playout. I've been using the Windows Media Center since the first version, and I'm now onto the Vista one. Brian Butterworth wrote: > > > I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at > > 2202-2232 > > > then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers. > > Doesn't the EPG offer an advance 'target schedule' (as per Radio Times/TV > Times > of old) to the nearest 5 minutes and a supplemental 'as broadcast' > delivered via > the EIT (or whatever the OTA/OTC technology is). You can set the PVR to record a set number of minutes on the end of the program. The only problem is when you are using both receivers, the overrun is cancelled when it would stop the start of another programme recording. The EPG is to the minute, for example "Prayer for the Day" on Radio 4 lists as 05:43-05:45, for example. Maybe an EIT/HTTP gateway would appear to be useful but I don't think it's > that > simple. > > Should an EPG even include 'as broadcast' information? My feelings is that the EPG should be as precise and accurate as possible. The idea of the EPG is that it is a temporal tagging of the television and radio content. I'd say not. > > From a UI point of view I see an EPG as being a coarse grained forward > planning > system for use by humans. The EIT can fine-tune a system to interpret an > EPG but > not 'change' it. I'm not sure how 'humans' are helped by being provided by incorrect information. If BBC TWO's programme starts at 10:02pm, and I saw that in advanced, I could watch the news headlines and then watch my show, surely? Say I ask my PVR to record Dr Who on Thursday night at 7pm (1) - if a plane > crashes at Heathrow at 6:30pm and there is live coverage; Dr Who is > cancelled. > So when I go and look at the EPG I see Dr Who has gone - what's up with > that > then? Am I an idiot? I'm sure it was there... > Actually I still want to see the original EPG data supplemented with > broadcast data. The Media Center picks up all these kind of schedule changes automatically as it checks for updates to the listings frequently, and you can select "update guide listings" at anytime to force it to. If a programme is cancelled or shifted it records it for you! In my world the idea of computers is that can be programmed to make it easy for the user. I would like to think that any EPG and PVR software should be able to download and tag TV content perfectly. A different scenario is that the storyline in a show shows events that are > deemed inappropriate (eg showing 'Airplane' the week of 9/11) so the > schedule is > changed a couple of days in advance - the EPG should change and may make > mention > in the comments of replacing previously scheduled programmes. Yes, Media Center has a log screen and this would appear in the list as you say. (1) OK, for the record: I actually say 'record Dr Who whenever it's on and > just > get one copy of each episode - go sort it out' and watch it when it > appears in > my list. That's the benefit of geeky OSS for you though. Yup, Media Center does that for me. But for Working Lunch, Newsnight and The Daily Politics, it records each one and keeps just one... > The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact > > start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your > > Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at > > 2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying "oh, hey, you know that > > programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few > seconds, > > so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start." > It's > > how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and > > it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables. > > > > > > "broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes > > anywhere", which is not quite > So they don't publish it - they broadcast it - for free!! Using the same > technology you use to pick up the TV signal. In a well defined manner. The > buggers! As I recall, it's not free. > Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice > > is using a listings guide that's based on the same information > that's > > provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a > > service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the > air > > with DTT. > > > > > > That seems quite like trying to have it both ways. > See above - I think there are 2 ways for 2 different things. > > > In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC. > Always good. > > > I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the > > EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to > > "acknowledge mistakes" and provide "accuracy" in the data. > The data isn't any more of a mistake than any Gantt chart in existence. > It's an > estimate with well bounded error bars (+/- 5 minutes). Surely you don't go > back > and lie about the estimates you gave people do you? > > > > As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or > > DVB-S as an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions. > > > ***WHAT*** > > So basically: My PVR is too brain-dead to pick up information from a > different > software component and would all broadcasters, all over the world stop > broadcasting changes live, over the air with the programmes and move to a > centralised, polled. unicast model so we don't have to change our code? > > Although that does sound like Microsoft software "engineers". As far as I remember when I looked into this, Windows Media Center uses the BDA: http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/broadcast.mspx It then uses an EPG to record the programmes, but it depends on this path only for the schedule. It is unable to provide MHEG-5, and (annoyingly) you sometimes have to manually fix the listings for new channels. I honestly would probably prefer it if the DVB component of the BDA was more capable, but it would make it easier for your MythTV system if any EPG was more accurate. Whilst speaking to them wrt a major UK Telco they would often seem to wonder > if > we could just change the PSTN to fit the way their instant messenger > application > worked... Yeah, but I'm personally quite capable of dealing with these issues. But that's not the point, these systems are for use by users, not experts. Can you feel the sympathy? <grin> > > David > > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial > list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
