On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:59:04 -0000, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Prof Mark Foster said to my kind brother Gilberto: > > You don't think that the statement, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the > Life. > > No one comes to the Father except through Me," is the principal argument > > used by the fundamentalist and conservative evangelical websites against > > Islam? Mark Foster > Then Gilberto replied: > **But there the issue is exclusivity and the emphasis isn't on being > chronologically last. > Maybe its a fine distinction and I'm sounding nit-picky but I think it is a > real one. > For example, there are some Christian fundamentalists who are not just > saying that Jesus is the last in a long series of prophets, they are > actually saying that Jesus has always been the only way to salvation. That > even in Genesis in Eden when the Bible says that the seed of the woman will > crush the head of the serpent that this was a prophecy about Jesus. And that > the people of the Old Testament were saved because they believed in the > messianic prophecies about Jesus. > And that if people of other religions are saved, it will be because somehow > Jesus was able to save them even though they didn't necessarily know his > name. > > So this is VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE MUSLIM "seal of the prophets" concept. > Christians are saying that Christ is the only way to salvation but they > allow for there to be prophets before and after Jesus. > > Muslims aren't saying Muhammad is the only way to salvation, but Muhammad > *is* the last prophet. > Peace Gilberto**
> I am in a sense not here because I should be here this weekend! But there > are dear Gilberto arguments on both aspects of the argument. Dear Khazeh, I"m not sure why there is a need to argue and why you don't seem to think that what I'm saying is true or accept it.. Maybe it would be good if you could say more clearly where you are trying to push the discussion to and it would be easier to see where you are coming from. All I've been trying to say in this whole sub-topic is that in Islam there is a very clear, strongly emphasized principle which is believed to a high degree of consensus that Muhammad was the last prophet and that prophethood is over. This is something which both sunni and shia agree to. But the same isn't true in Christianity (at least not as I've experienced it or studied it). Christianity as a whole CLEARLY allows for prophets coming after Jesus. I'm not sure why there is even any question. In the Bible itself after the crucifixion, after the ascencion, in the early church, in acts 11: [27] Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. [28] And one of them named Ag'abus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world; and this took place in the days of Claudius. [29] And the disciples determined, every one according to his ability, to send relief to the brethren who lived in Judea; [30] and they did so, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul Or 1 Corinthians 4 [5] Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified. And there are other examples too. > 1] that Jesus Christ "is" also last chronologically and in terrestrial time > and on His Return He will bear the marks of the nails etc on His Blessed > Body [Corpus Christi]. And the Revelation of John says: Do not add anything. Yes, there is that warning at the end of the book of revelation. Revelation 22 [18] I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, [19] and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Except the Bible was written seperately, not as one book, so the above is really refering to people who try to change that one book. I'm not even sure if it was the last book of the Bible written so if it did really apply to Christian revelation as a whole there are going to be alot of people in trouble. > > 2] Conversely as His holiness Baha'u'llah explains in the Sacred Iqan, in > tones of lucidity and inexpressible beauty,: > **Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term "last" is > applicable to the "first," and the term "first" applicable to the "last;" > inasmuch as both the "first" and the "last" have risen to proclaim one and > the same Faith. > (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 161)** > It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise > is their "Seal." > (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 162) > The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto > all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, > have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this > people presume the terms "first" and "last" - when referring to God - > glorified be His Name! - to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear > reference to this material universe, how could it be possible, when the > visible order of things is still manifestly existing? Nay, in this > instance, by "first" is meant no other than the "last" and by "last" no > other than the "first." > (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 162-163) > > ***This is why Ibn 'Abbas narrates saying that the Prophet said: "I WAS > PROPHET WHEN ADAM WAS BETWEEN SOUL AND BODY (I.E. WHEN ADAM'S CREATION WAS > IN ITS PRELIMINARY STAGES)" (AT-TABARANI, AL-MU'JJAM AL-KABIR; AL KHASA'IS > AL-KUBRA, VOL.1, p.4).*** > I'm not sure what you are saying here. It seems like "first" and "last" don't mean anything at all in the writings of Bahaullah. That doesn't make sense to me. Even if you wanted to take the hadith above, or even others where the prophet says that the first thing created was his light... sure you could say that the first creation was the Light of Muhammad, and that perhaps this light has shone through the various prophets until Muhammad. But then still, in the physical sense Muhammad was still unique in saying that prophethood ended with him. The other prophets simply didn't make the same claim before. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
