On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:27:58 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto, > > > At 08:42 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: > >>But if its not a case of abused and if you are just talking about people > >>getting married at ages atypical for 21st century Kansas, I don't think > >>that's a moral question.<< Mark: > I think it would clearly be a moral issue to most Americans for an adult to > marry a prepubescent child - even without immediately consummating the > marriage. GIlberto: That she was pre-pubescent is an assumption on your part. There are indications otherwise. If you read the Squires piece especially. In the Middle East at the time it *would* have been inappropriate to consumate a marriage with a pre-pubescent girl. And according to the commentaries he at least waited till after puberty. Gilberto: > >>So what is the difference between ettiquette and morality?<< Mark: > Using common sociological terminology, etiquette would fall under what > William Graham Sumner called "folkways" (folk norms). In all contemporary > Western societies, marrying a prepubescent child would be a more violation. Gilberto: So what is the difference between a "folkway" and a "more"? Gilberto: > >>Something like that. I would want to be sensitive to the specific nature of > >>a situation and realize that there are extremes and exceptions. I ithink > >>I'm kind of a pragmatist.<< Mark: > So, if you think that morality is absolute, and that the Prophet Muhammad > exemplified it, you believe it would be acceptable for an American to marry a > prepubescent child??? Gilberto: It is certainly weird and atypical, but if I could be convinced that their intentions didn't involve any hint that they would exploit the child I wouldn't have a moral objection to them being betrothed. > > >>Here is the best article piece I've seen discussing the issue: > >>http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html<< > > However, Gilberto, this writer is making **my** point about cultural, or > historical, relativism, which you appear to dismiss. For instance: > > "It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the > marriage of cAishah and Muhammad took place when the former had reached > puberty and that this was normal at the time." Gilberto: I think you need to read it more carefully. There is a difference between believing in moral relativism and merely recognizing that popular norms and standards might change over time. Squires actually makes this kind of distinction: [begin quote] According to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right and wrong are ordained by Almighty God. As such, morality does not change over time based on our whims, desires or cultural sensitivities. In cultures where there is no Divinely revealed ruling on an issue, what is right and what is wrong is determined by cultural norms. In such cases, a person would only be considered "immoral" if they violated the accepted norms of their society. As we will demonstrate, the Prophet Muhammad's(P) marriage to cAishah, viewed both in the light of Absolute Morality and the cultural norms of his time, was not an immoral act, but was an act containing valuable lessons for generations to come. Additionally, this marriage followed the norms for all Semitic peoples, including those of Biblical times. Based on this, and other information that we will provide below, it is grossly hypocritical for Christians to criticise the Prophet's(P) marriage to cAishah at such a young age. In case Christian readers are under the false impression that their values today are timeless and somehow reflect those of Biblical times, please consider the following points which are directly related to the question of at what age a person is properly ready to be married: Keeping in mind the ideas of "political correctness" and "absolute morality", in Biblical times the age at which a girl could marry was puberty. However, during the Middle Ages it was usually twelve years old. Now in most "Christian" countries it is between fourteen and sixteen years old. I live in country where some states allow partners of the same sex to legally marry, but consider an eighteen year old boy who sleeps with a sixteen year old girl a "statutory rapist". So even though Christians might disagree with much of what is becoming all too prevalent in Western society today - whether it be drug abuse, gay marriages or abortion - they too have been swallowed up (possibly unknowingly) by the ugly monster of "moral relativism" Certainly, they might be giving in less quickly than people who have no Divine basis for their morality, but they're giving in nonetheless. [end quote] So Squires is obviously saying there is an absolute morality on the one hand and cultural norms on the other. And furthermore, he says that Christians who seem to find the young marriage of Aishah morally objectionable are confusing the latter for the former. Gilberto: >>So, if someone unearthed persuasive evidence which proved that Bahaullah had been involved in certain kinds of unsavory and conventionally immoral behavior it wouldn't play a role in or affect whether you believed in him?<< Mark: > I would hope not. Gilberto: > >>Really? Why not? What if it turned out that the Bahai Writings actually > >>came from someone like Charles Manson or Jeffery Dahmer ?<< Mark: > I said, "I hope not." That is the most I can determine. No one can really > know for sure how she or he would react under such circumstances. > But what I don't understand is why that would even be your hope. Why wouldn't the character of the messenger be an issue? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
