Albert, see my replies: On 9/19/07, Albert Verbrugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, where I live (in the USA) indigenous people have no land or > resources. Yup, the European "explorers" just took it, by devine right. > > Well now these indigenous people can look to the world community of > Nations for redress in the distant future. The decedents of the > explorers have to negotiate a mutual satisfying resolution, possibly > through the World Court. I realize the US Gov does not recognize the > World Court yet, but there will come a time when they will. Justice will > be served in the end. For now the 370 million "indigenous peoples" of > the world have the satisfaction they are recognized in International Law > as having "Rights". It only took 300 years.
Albert, How do you defien "indigenous peoples"? > > Ursus Maximus wrote: > > I do not understand what is significant about this. Reading the > > extract you quote, Albert, it says that indigenous people (which is an > > undefined term, where I live this is fought out in the courts for > > decades) have rights over their land and resources. However, where I > > live (in the USA) indigenous people have no land or resources (other > > than gambling casinos, which are contrary to Baha'i law). So, the only > > way "control over land and resources " means anything, is if people of > > non-indigenous descent (how to define this?) are forced to give up all > > the land and resources to people of indigenous descent. Is this the > > intent of this resolution? If not, I think it is meaningless. > > > > One more thing. Before we begin to celebrate too joyously, consider > > that returning land and resources to "indigenous" owners would mean > > forfeiting the Baha'i World Center in it's entirety to Palestinians > > (who would most likely be virulently anti-Baha'i). > > Properties were bought before Israel was a State, created by the UN. > The founding of any particular government, such as that of Israel, has no bearing on this question. Any land land purchased in the last few hundred years, is, by defintion, not in the hands of its "indigenous" owners. Again, it comes down to who is defined as "indigenous". If my ancestors occupied some given piece of land 10 years ago, are they indigenous? 100 years? 200? 500? 1000? 5000? 10,000 years? All, and I do mean all, as in 100% of the privately owned land on planet earth, was orignally acquired through violence and conflict. Do we decide to sanction private property acquired and held by violent means 100 years ago, or 500 years ago, or 1000 years ago, or just when? 2000 years? > > > > Whatever happened to the principle of being non-political? This is not > > only political, but, if it were ever to be actually enforced, would > > cause widespread divisiveness and warfare. > > Human Rights are God given Rights. The Governments representing 5 > Billion plus peoples voted for this resolution. > > Frankly, my surprise is more with the Government of Canada, since the > Supreme Court in Canada ruled more than 30 years ago that native peoples > in Canada who made land agreements with the British Crown, in regards to > their lands have legally binding agreements with the government of > Canada and they never surrendered them. It is one of the reasons that > the Provence of Quebec, if it wanted to leave Confederation would have > to leave without 75% of the territory. > Albert, where do you live and wqhat is yoru ancestry? What land and property are you personnally giving up in all this? If you live in France, and are of Gallic "blood" (teh whole idea of "blood" in this regards is ludicrous, in my opinion), are you preared to turn over evrythign you own, plus 200 yearts worth of interest , to me (I'm of Celtic ancestry, and my Celtic forebears were driven out of what is now France by your Gallic kin. By the way, I want reparations for the detahs, pain adn suffering my Cletic forebears suffered at the hands of your Germanci speaking ancestors, too. it will be abig bill, I assure you. > Since when are Legal rights political? I put forth that injustice is the > main reason for divisiveness and warfare. > Kegal rights are ALWAYS political. As that noted minor prophet , the Native American Robert Zimmerman (soemtiems known as Bob Dylan) said: "Democracy don't rule the world, you better get that through your head. This world is ruled by violence, but I guess that's better off left unsaid" Finally. I just note that, in my opinion, this is a most political matter you have brought up. I don't see how you could see it as not political. Just look at the coutnries who voted against it. How could you possibly be surprised . Get real. The countries that voted "for it" are just rationalizing that their violent land seizures are legitimate because they are further back in the past. > Regards, > > Albert > > > > > > > > Ron > > On 9/19/07, Albert Verbrugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> It is with particular satisfaction and some surprise that a process > >> started in 1982 in which the International Bahá'í Community was involved > >> came to fruition on September 13th, 2007. The satisfaction is obvious, > >> however, the Governments that opposed it's fruition namely, Canada, > >> Australia, New Zealand and the United States is surprising. Be as it may > >> the UN has enshrined in its Constitution that Indigenous peoples Rights > >> "are" Human rights. > >> > >> Albert > >> > >> > >> "The fundamental principle of the oneness of mankind, and the aim of the > >> Faith to promote unity in diversity, underlie the Bahá'í approach to > >> indigenous peoples. Their rights are inseparable from human rights for > >> all, and the Bahá'í Faith upholds the right of indigenous peoples to > >> develop and take pride in their own identity, culture and language. > >> Great importance is attached to teaching the Faith to the indigenous > >> populations in a country, more especially since they have so often been > >> neglected or downtrodden by other segments of society; in many instances > >> their suffering has made them particularly receptive to the Message of > >> Bahá'u'lláh. > >> > >> ...A unique feature of the Bahá'í Administrative Order is the manner in > >> which it enables all the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community, drawn > >> from a variety of ethnic, racial, cultural and educational backgrounds, > >> to work together in a mutually supportive and spiritually beneficial > >> manner. This is in direct contrast to the declining social order > >> external to the Bahá'í community, in which each segment seeks to pursue > >> a separate path in its social and political organization and activities." > >> > >> (25 July 1995, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an > >> individual believer) [6] > >> > >> > >> "...the oneness of mankind will not be based on forced assimilation, but > >> upon protection of cultural diversity. At the same time, however, we > >> should beware of inadvertently settling upon a limited model, such as > >> the one sometimes associated in contemporary discourse on > >> multiculturalism. A distinctively Bahá'í culture will welcome an > >> infinite diversity in regard to secondary characteristics, but also > >> firmly uphold unity in regard to fundamental principles, thereby > >> achieving a vigorous complementarity. For example, in Selections from > >> the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982), page > >> 260-1, we find the following intriguing statement: > >> > >> What a blessing that will be -- when all shall come together, even as > >> once separate torrents, rivers and streams, running brooks and single > >> drops, when collected together in one place will form a mighty sea. And > >> to such a degree will the inherent unity of all prevail, that the > >> traditions, rules, customs and distinctions in the fanciful life of > >> these populations will be effaced and vanish away like isolated drops, > >> once the great sea of oneness doth leap and surge and roll." > >> > >> (The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Dec 16, Traditional practices > >> in Africa) > >> > >> > >> > >> UN Adopts Historic Statement on Native Rights > >> > >> Thu Sep 13, 10:05 PM ET > >> > >> UNITED NATIONS, Sep 13 (OneWorld) - Despite strong objections from the > >> United States and some of its allies, the UN General Assembly adopted a > >> resolution Thursday calling for the recognition of the world's 370 > >> million indigenous peoples' right to self-determination and control over > >> their lands and resources. > >> > >> The adoption of the Universal Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous > >> Peoples comes after 22 years of diplomatic negotiations at the United > >> Nations involving its member states, international civil society groups, > >> and representatives of the world's aboriginal communities. > >> > >> An overwhelming majority of UN member countries endorsed the > >> Declaration, with 143 voting in favor, 4 against, and 11 abstaining. > >> > >> The United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand stood alone in > >> voting against the resolution. The nations that neither supported nor > >> objected were Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burundi, Colombia, > >> Georgia, Kenya, Nigeria, Russia, Samoa, and Ukraine. > >> > >> "It's a triumph for indigenous peoples around the world," said UN > >> Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon after the General Assembly vote. "This > >> marks a historic moment when member states and indigenous peoples have > >> reconciled with their painful histories." > >> > >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/20070914/wl_oneworld/45361531601189739282;_ylt=Auvi5jfu8l7szrgEpLorGh0E1vAI > >> > >> > >> > >> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto > >> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is > >> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or > >> entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state > >> privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this > >> message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, > >> dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly > >> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately > >> notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this > >> e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> Rights of Indigenous Populations > >> [BIC Document #88-0801] > >> > >> Geneva, Switzerland > >> 1-5 August 1988 > >> > >> "Madam Chairman, > >> > >> At this session, the Working Group has entered a new season in its > >> endeavors. After six years of careful study of the concrete problems and > >> issues facing indigenous peoples and their governments, the Working > >> Group is ready to begin the drafting of an international declaration to > >> safeguard the rights and promote the status of indigenous peoples. > >> Throughout these six years, members of the Working Group, and of the > >> many indigenous organizations that have contributed to its activities, > >> have shown great dedication, sincerity and good will in forging ahead > >> with their task. Their efforts are about to bear fruit. > >> > >> The Bahá'í International Community congratulates you, Madam Chairman, on > >> preparing a well-conceived draft set of principles as a starting-point > >> for discussion. We would like to make a few comments on these draft > >> principles, on the content of a declaration on indigenous rights, and on > >> the process of drafting the declaration...." > >> > >> http://www.bic-un.bahai.org/88-0801.htm > >> ___________________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> Albert Verbrugh wrote: > >>> Thu Sep 13, 10:05 PM ET > >>> > >>> UNITED NATIONS, Sep 13 (OneWorld) - Despite strong objections from the > >>> United States and some of its allies, the UN General Assembly adopted a > >>> resolution Thursday calling for the recognition of the world's 370 > >>> million indigenous peoples' right to self-determination and control over > >>> their lands and resources. > >>> > >>> The adoption of the Universal Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous > >>> Peoples comes after 22 years of diplomatic negotiations at the United > >>> Nations involving its member states, international civil society groups, > >>> and representatives of the world's aboriginal communities. > >>> > >>> An overwhelming majority of UN member countries endorsed the > >>> Declaration, with 143 voting in favor, 4 against, and 11 abstaining. > >>> > >>> The United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand stood alone in > >>> voting against the resolution. The nations that neither supported nor > >>> objected were Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burundi, Colombia, > >>> Georgia, Kenya, Nigeria, Russia, Samoa, and Ukraine. > >>> > >>> "It's a triumph for indigenous peoples around the world," said UN > >>> Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon after the General Assembly vote. "This > >>> marks a historic moment when member states and indigenous peoples have > >>> reconciled with their painful histories." > >>> > >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/20070914/wl_oneworld/45361531601189739282;_ylt=Auvi5jfu8l7szrgEpLorGh0E1vAI > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto > >>> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and > >>> is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or > >>> entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and > >>> state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader > >>> of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that > >>> retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is > >>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please > >>> immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently > >>> delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. 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