Albert, How do you defien "indigenous peoples"?

People whose ancestors inhabited a place or country when persons from another culture or ethnic background arrived on the scene and dominated them through conquest, settlement, or other means and who today live more in conformity with their own social, economic, and cultural customs and traditions than with those of """the country of which they now form a part""".

Please, take special note of """the country of which they now form a part""" This should rule out a host of other issues.

Regards,

Albert

Ursus Maximus wrote:
Albert, see my replies:

On 9/19/07, Albert Verbrugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
However, where I live (in the USA) indigenous people have no land or
resources. Yup, the European "explorers" just took it, by devine right.

Well now these indigenous people can look to the world community of
Nations for redress in the distant future. The decedents of the
explorers have to negotiate a mutual satisfying resolution, possibly
through the World Court. I realize the US Gov does not recognize the
World Court yet, but there will come a time when they will. Justice will
be served in the end. For now the 370 million "indigenous peoples" of
the world have the satisfaction they are recognized in International Law
as having "Rights". It only took 300 years.

Albert, How do you defien "indigenous peoples"?

Ursus Maximus wrote:
I do not understand what is significant about this. Reading the
extract you quote, Albert, it says that indigenous people (which is an
undefined term, where I live this is fought out in the courts for
decades) have rights over their land and resources. However, where I
live (in the USA) indigenous people have no land or resources (other
than gambling casinos, which are contrary to Baha'i law). So, the only
way "control over land and resources " means anything, is if people of
non-indigenous descent (how to define this?) are forced to give up all
the land and resources to people of indigenous descent. Is this the
intent of this resolution? If not, I think it is meaningless.

One more thing. Before we begin to celebrate too joyously, consider
that returning land and resources to "indigenous" owners would mean
forfeiting the Baha'i World Center in it's entirety to Palestinians
(who would most likely be virulently anti-Baha'i).
Properties were bought before Israel was a State, created by the UN.


The founding of any particular government, such as that of Israel, has
no bearing on this question. Any land land purchased in the last few
hundred years, is, by defintion, not in the hands of its "indigenous"
owners.

Again, it comes down to who is defined as "indigenous". If my
ancestors occupied some given piece of land 10 years ago, are they
indigenous? 100 years? 200? 500? 1000? 5000? 10,000 years?

All, and I do mean all, as in 100% of the privately owned land on
planet earth, was orignally acquired through violence and conflict. Do
we decide to sanction private property acquired and held by violent
means 100 years ago, or 500 years ago, or 1000 years ago, or just
when? 2000 years?

Whatever happened to the principle of being non-political? This is not
only political, but, if it were ever to be actually enforced, would
cause widespread divisiveness and warfare.
Human Rights are God given Rights. The Governments representing 5
Billion plus peoples voted for this resolution.

Frankly, my surprise is more with the Government of Canada, since the
Supreme Court in Canada ruled more than 30 years ago that native peoples
in Canada who made land agreements with the British Crown, in regards to
their lands have legally binding agreements with the government of
Canada and they never surrendered them. It is one of the reasons that
the Provence of Quebec, if it wanted to leave Confederation would have
to leave without 75% of the territory.

Albert, where do you live and wqhat is yoru ancestry? What land and
property are you personnally giving up in all this? If you live in
France, and are of Gallic "blood" (teh whole idea of "blood" in this
regards is ludicrous, in my opinion), are you preared to turn over
evrythign you own, plus 200 yearts worth of interest , to me (I'm of
Celtic ancestry, and my Celtic forebears were driven out of what is
now France by your Gallic kin. By the way, I want reparations for the
detahs, pain adn suffering my Cletic forebears suffered at the hands
of your Germanci speaking ancestors, too. it will be abig bill, I
assure you.


Since when are Legal rights political? I put forth that injustice is the
main reason for divisiveness and warfare.


Kegal rights are ALWAYS political. As that noted minor prophet , the
Native American Robert Zimmerman (soemtiems known as Bob Dylan) said:

"Democracy don't rule the world, you better get that through your head.
This world is ruled by violence, but I guess that's better off left unsaid"

Finally. I just note that, in my opinion, this is a most political
matter you have brought up. I don't see how you could see it as not
political. Just look at the coutnries who voted against it. How could
you possibly be surprised . Get real. The countries that voted "for
it" are just rationalizing that their violent land seizures are
legitimate because they are further back in the past.

Regards,

Albert



Ron
On 9/19/07, Albert Verbrugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It is with particular satisfaction and some surprise that a process
started in 1982 in which the International Bahá'í Community was involved
came to fruition on September 13th, 2007. The satisfaction is obvious,
however, the Governments that opposed it's fruition namely, Canada,
Australia, New Zealand and the United States is surprising. Be as it may
the UN has enshrined in its Constitution that Indigenous peoples Rights
"are" Human rights.

Albert


"The fundamental principle of the oneness of mankind, and the aim of the
Faith to promote unity in diversity, underlie the Bahá'í approach to
indigenous peoples. Their rights are inseparable from human rights for
all, and the Bahá'í Faith upholds the right of indigenous peoples to
develop and take pride in their own identity, culture and language.
Great importance is attached to teaching the Faith to the indigenous
populations in a country, more especially since they have so often been
neglected or downtrodden by other segments of society; in many instances
their suffering has made them particularly receptive to the Message of
Bahá'u'lláh.

...A unique feature of the Bahá'í Administrative Order is the manner in
which it enables all the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community, drawn
from a variety of ethnic, racial, cultural and educational backgrounds,
to work together in a mutually supportive and spiritually beneficial
manner. This is in direct contrast to the declining social order
external to the Bahá'í community, in which each segment seeks to pursue
a separate path in its social and political organization and activities."

(25 July 1995, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an
individual believer) [6]


"...the oneness of mankind will not be based on forced assimilation, but
upon protection of cultural diversity. At the same time, however, we
should beware of inadvertently settling upon a limited model, such as
the one sometimes associated in contemporary discourse on
multiculturalism. A distinctively Bahá'í culture will welcome an
infinite diversity in regard to secondary characteristics, but also
firmly uphold unity in regard to fundamental principles, thereby
achieving a vigorous complementarity. For example, in Selections from
the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982), page
260-1, we find the following intriguing statement:

What a blessing that will be -- when all shall come together, even as
once separate torrents, rivers and streams, running brooks and single
drops, when collected together in one place will form a mighty sea. And
to such a degree will the inherent unity of all prevail, that the
traditions, rules, customs and distinctions in the fanciful life of
these populations will be effaced and vanish away like isolated drops,
once the great sea of oneness doth leap and surge and roll."

     (The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Dec 16, Traditional practices
in Africa)



  UN Adopts Historic Statement on Native Rights

Thu Sep 13, 10:05 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS, Sep 13 (OneWorld) - Despite strong objections from the
United States and some of its allies, the UN General Assembly adopted a
resolution Thursday calling for the recognition of the world's 370
million indigenous peoples' right to self-determination and control over
their lands and resources.

The adoption of the Universal Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous
Peoples comes after 22 years of diplomatic negotiations at the United
Nations involving its member states, international civil society groups,
and representatives of the world's aboriginal communities.

An overwhelming majority of UN member countries endorsed the
Declaration, with 143 voting in favor, 4 against, and 11 abstaining.

The United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand stood alone in
voting against the resolution. The nations that neither supported nor
objected were Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burundi, Colombia,
Georgia, Kenya, Nigeria, Russia, Samoa, and Ukraine.

"It's a triumph for indigenous peoples around the world," said UN
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon after the General Assembly vote. "This
marks a historic moment when member states and indigenous peoples have
reconciled with their painful histories."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/20070914/wl_oneworld/45361531601189739282;_ylt=Auvi5jfu8l7szrgEpLorGh0E1vAI



The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent 
by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and 
for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by 
federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message 
is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or 
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please 
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message 
and any attachments thereto. Thank you.


________________________________________________________________________


Rights of Indigenous Populations
[BIC Document #88-0801]

Geneva, Switzerland
1-5 August 1988

"Madam Chairman,

At this session, the Working Group has entered a new season in its
endeavors. After six years of careful study of the concrete problems and
issues facing indigenous peoples and their governments, the Working
Group is ready to begin the drafting of an international declaration to
safeguard the rights and promote the status of indigenous peoples.
Throughout these six years, members of the Working Group, and of the
many indigenous organizations that have contributed to its activities,
have shown great dedication, sincerity and good will in forging ahead
with their task. Their efforts are about to bear fruit.

The Bahá'í International Community congratulates you, Madam Chairman, on
preparing a well-conceived draft set of principles as a starting-point
for discussion. We would like to make a few comments on these draft
principles, on the content of a declaration on indigenous rights, and on
the process of drafting the declaration...."

http://www.bic-un.bahai.org/88-0801.htm
___________________________________________________________________________



Albert Verbrugh wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 10:05 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS, Sep 13 (OneWorld) - Despite strong objections from the
United States and some of its allies, the UN General Assembly adopted a
resolution Thursday calling for the recognition of the world's 370
million indigenous peoples' right to self-determination and control over
their lands and resources.

The adoption of the Universal Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous
Peoples comes after 22 years of diplomatic negotiations at the United
Nations involving its member states, international civil society groups,
and representatives of the world's aboriginal communities.

An overwhelming majority of UN member countries endorsed the
Declaration, with 143 voting in favor, 4 against, and 11 abstaining.

The United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand stood alone in
voting against the resolution. The nations that neither supported nor
objected were Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burundi, Colombia,
Georgia, Kenya, Nigeria, Russia, Samoa, and Ukraine.

"It's a triumph for indigenous peoples around the world," said UN
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon after the General Assembly vote. "This
marks a historic moment when member states and indigenous peoples have
reconciled with their painful histories."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/20070914/wl_oneworld/45361531601189739282;_ylt=Auvi5jfu8l7szrgEpLorGh0E1vAI





The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and
is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and
state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that
retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently
delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.


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