Perhaps, Matthias, we can at least agree that later German baroque
lutenists, were indebted to the French lutenist's experimentation with
accords nouveaux, lute types, and "le style luthé" which so influenced even the
French harpsichordists. Their in depth research of the lute's sonorities makes
their pieces studies in sound texture (as much as in melodic structure),
tightly associated with this instrument, and difficult to transpose. Those who
are less sensitive to texture may indeed prefer the more overtly organised
melodic structure of a Weiss, or a de Visée.
However, there is a range in French music, from the almost speaking style (as
Arto says of Dufaut), to a more Lullian melodic style ("spiked" with
dissonance): from the disolving harmonic patterns of Mouton, through Gallot
(announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée), to de Visée himself, with his
independently structured bass lines underpinning a strongly articulated melodic
superstructure. For some, Weiss might be the pinnacle of this progression; yet
both Weiss, and de Visée, proclaim their debt and admiration for Gallot: de
Visée quotes Psychée in his tombeaux du Vieux Gallot, while Weiss' reworks
"L'Amant Malheureux", as a resounding "eulogy".
As I said in a recent SFL luth journal, in a concert in Paris, Benjamin Narvey
underlined this evolution, and while his strong projection and singing style
undoubtedly favoured the cantabile of these two great masters*, de Visée and
Weiss, his performance of the more elusive Prelude of Mouton (through his
masterful phrasing, ornamentation and rhythm), achieved a fluidity approaching
the gestures of a baroque dancer. Nothing seemed static, even silences
suggested movement: musical flights abruptly suspended, but continued in the
mind of the listener. Dissolving harmonic patterns melted into each other, the
lute constantly ringing as new notes were struck, the resonance of the lute
itself seems the primary focus of the composition.
Each lutenist has their own sensitivity and history which makes one composer
work better for them than another. I understand you fascination, Mathias, with
"pure" melodic structure, to which I am not immune; but it is the eloquent
gesture, elegance, fluidity and poise of French Baroque to which I feel most
drawn.
However, you are quite right that with the loss of the musical tradition this
elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the
simplest pieces, so rather than attempting Gallot's Psyché, I am at present
struggling with de Visée's slightly more melodically approachable "Tombeau du
Vieux Gallot" inspired by this piece.
Unfortunately, even for this, it is not sufficient to have a historically
suitable lute and excellent stringing with good clarity and sustain, to succeed.
Regards
Anthony
*PS This is exactly the repertoire (Weiss and de Visée)that Benjamin will be
performing in Paris this coming Sunday.
----- Mail original -----
De : Mathias Rösel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
À : baroque-lute mailing-list <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Cc :
Envoyé le : Dimanche 18 mars 2012 0h07
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Arto,
Thank you for your balanced views! I agree in general that there's no better
or worse in matters of taste. I hasten to add, though, that taste is a
matter of education, a matter of discerning the ways. When I look back, I
must admit that some things went wrong in the very beginning of my lute
schooling. Wrong is a strong word, I know, but that's what it looks like
from my perspective of today.
Giesbert's method does not contain French baroque music, offering but late
German baroque. Satoh's method has one piece by Gallot, but via the famous
arrangement by Weiss! The method by Michel Serdoura / Yisrael has been the
best so far IMO in that it offers very well written articles by several
authors and a wide range of music. That is the desirable width of mind that
Dagobert Bruger had already reached in 1928.
No mention, though, of other types of the instrument. The baroque lute is a
number of different lutes, rather, comprising 10c through 13c lutes,
including different types of theorboed and non-theorboed lutes, not to speak
of different tunings.
You mentioned traits like uneven and unpredictable passages, varying the
lengths of phrases, unexpected harmonies in French baroque lute music. I
share these impressions (don't particularly like them, though), but I am
suspicious that they have been provoked by circulating recordings which
helped to create this kind of common approach towards this music. I
appreciate more the ways these composers e.g. deal with their melodies.
Thank you anyway for Monsieur Dufaut's courante!
Mathias
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Arto Wikla
> Gesendet: Samstag, 17. März 2012 19:15
> An: Anthony Hind
> Cc: Mathias Rösel; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
>
> Dear Anthony, Mathias and the List
>
> Some personal aesthetic views of French style and Weiss et co:
>
> I am not talking of some music being "better" or "worse" than some other
> music. Actually my opinion is also generally that no style of music is
better or
> worse than any other style. Of course everyone has her/his preferences and
no-
> no's, but that is subjective selection, not "the truth".
>
> I like very much the French 17th century lute music just because it is
uneven and
> unpredictable; the lengths of phrases vary, there are unexpected
harmonies, etc.
> Often it is like speaking, not so much like singing a versed poem. And
just that
> attracts me - lots of information often in a small space.
>
> To me the style of Weiss and other late baroque guys is quite often very
> "square". Everything in pieces of this style usually behaves so well and
> "educated". And it can be so predictable! And so often everything is
repeated
> and repeated ad infinitum... On the other hand, it can be very
> song-like: beautiful melodies "correctly" harmonized. Groups of four bars
> elegantly set to the company of other four bars, A-section ending to the
> dominant key, B-section bringing it back to the tonic... Well, can
sometimes be
> boring... (Of course there is also very enjoyable music by the late
baroque
> composers, even to me! ;-)
>
> Just today I (again) enjoyed the uneven and unpredictable French baroque
in the
> company of Francois Dufault:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eIUhqvJ_zk
>
> And yes, I know my graces should be more graceful, but anyhow I am just a
Finn,
> not a Frenchman... ;-))
>
> All the best,
>
> Arto
>
>
> On 17/03/12 15:32, Anthony Hind wrote:
> > Dear Mathias
> > Thanks for your explanations, yes I do understand your
> > feelings. I have a number of friends here in Paris, who prefer to
play
> > Weiss (or similar) rather than French music, more or less for the
> > reasons you state.
> > Only the bare-bones seem to be encoded in the tablature, and a great
> > depth of understanding is needed to interpret the simplest of
pieces.
> > Economy of composition and melodic ambiguity, seems almost
> > contradictory; French classic literature shows similar economy, but
> > seeks out "le mot juste" (whereas according to a recent BBC
programme,
> > English authors delight in ambiguity).
> > I do delight in melodic ambiguity, but am far from mastering the art
of
> > its interpretation or grasping the "grammar" of its rhetoric.
> > My first teacher, Terrence Waterhouse, before I temporarily retired
> > from lute playing, was a student of Michael Schaeffer, and I heard
much
> > about his theoretical in-put, through him. At that time I was only
> > learning renaissance lute, and there was unfortunately a long break
> > before I returned to lute playing and the baroque lute.
> > I am in contact with an expert in the interpretation of the French
> > lute, and always amazed at how he makes a piece sing, or talk; in
> > comparison my playing is completely flat, but I strive on. I love
his
> > playing of Weiss, but find it almost melodically indulgent (if you
know
> > what I mean), I must be rather a melodic puritan, I fear.
> > Best wishes
> > Anthony
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> _
> >
> > De : Mathias Roesel<mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
> > A : baroque-lute mailing-list<baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 10h56
> > Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
> > Dear Anthony,
> > I do not blame you, and I hope you didn't offense in what I wrote.
As
> > for
> > the "Pieces de luth" LP, I do regret that it was my first encounter
> > with
> > French baroque lute music. When I first listened, I was like, wow,
they
> > had
> > jazz in the 17th century. It's so sophisticated, I couldn't tell
triple
> > time
> > from even time by listening, I was amazed by the glittering sound,
> > amazed by
> > unexpected progress of harmonies, amazed by unidentifiable
rhythmical
> > structures.
> > From then on, my idea of that music was, I kinda like it, but this
is
> > so
> > artificial, I will never understand how it works. This music was
> > completely
> > veiled before my ears because of many rubatos, arpeggios instead of
> > broken
> > lines, and so on. Had I first listened to, say, Michael Schaeffer,
> > things
> > would have been different for me (but if and would are the fool's
last
> > words). That first contact coined my idea of what French baroque
lute
> > music
> > was.
> > And that's why I kept my hands off from it for a long time. Like
many
> > others, I took my way through Giesbert's method and later through
> > Toyohiko
> > Satoh's. To me, the greatest composers who wrote for the baroque
lute,
> > were
> > Bach and Weiss, and none other compared to them. I knew there was
some
> > French music, but it was much too tricky and way not rewarding
enough
> > as to
> > be worth a try. Sorry for oversimplification, but it comes close.
> > > He does mention his stringing in all the booklets relating to
the
> > > Wengerer lute (his last two CDs), but as I made clear, he says
> > nothing
> > > about th stringing of the 12c lute (a pity). I am sorry that
you
> > didn't
> > > remember it.
> > That's right, he doesn't say a word about his stringing in the
booklet
> > of
> > Old Gaultier's Nightingale.
> > Best,
> > Mathias
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
