> >I guess my major point here is that a poor soil on impoverished land can
be
> >replenished by plant matter alone, or with plant matter and rock dusts.
>
> Dear Frank - Is the above statement in theory or in practice?
Well, let me take a whack at that. My experience has shown me that good
composts can be made with leaves, hedge trimmings, grass clippings, wood
chips from branches, and similar vegetative wastes ubiquitous to the
suburban landscape. I have seen good looking soils, rich in organic matter,
high in earthworm counts, capable of growing good vegetables and fruits, in
suburban soils whose only grazing was done by 'iron sheep' of the LawnBoy,
John Deere or similar breeds. And this, after the land was initially
stripped of its topsoil by developers....
My grandfather taught me that a good source of topsoil for the garden could
be had in the nearby woods. This was from right under the leafy duff layer,
a plant based material, eh?
Now, it must be said again that no soil anywhere is free of animal manures,
them birds flying overhead ensure that, and there are the squirrels in
suburbia, as well as dogs, cats, skunks, raccoons, etc...
Some of my composts have had worm populations of 2-3 pounds per cubic foot,
and following Doc Ingham's take on this, we can construe worm activity
through compost as similar in many respects to a cow's stomach:
"Thus an earthworm is probably much like a small version of a cow, horse,
deer, or any animal with a rumen. We should treat worms with as much care as
we do these larger herbivores. Cows eat grass, but it is not the cow that
digests the organic matter, it's the bacteria and fungi in the cow's
stomachs that do the work, the cow consumes the bacterial and fungal waste
products made during that fermentation. Worms ingest sand, silt, clay, dead
plant material, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, the odd insect larva,
microarthropod, and so forth. Inside the gut of the worm, conditions are
perfect (good moisture, and, we believe, well-aerated) for the bacteria and
fungi to speed up their growth processes and decompose more of the organic
matter. The worm mixes all these things in their gut, increasing bacterial
growth considerably. The worm takes it's "tax" by enzymatically digesting
some of the organisms that grew while they were in the worm's gut, and poops
out the rest of the material, with greatly altered sets of organic matter,
bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes."
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/systems/compost/compost5.html
You could argue that it isn't 'plant matter compost' once an earthworm has
eaten it, and I concede the point. The real issue is, what is the impact of
having a predominantly earthworm digested compost that has never passed
through a cow's stomach, versus a compost made up mostly of cow digested
material? The insights of others may be needed here...
Dr Abigail Maynard has been running some leaf compost experiments at
Connecticut Extension for some time, she has a 12 year study of leaf compost
additions to vegetable plots ( one inch per year being a standard rate).
According to her, one inch of leaf compost is adequate to meet the
fertilizer needs of most vegetables.
http://www.caes.state.ct.us/Bulletins/2000/b966.pdf
That is an amount equivalent to 50 tons to the acre, eh? Now, Abby admits
that manure based composts are richer in N, and can be applied in smaller
amounts for equivalent results. But, you can also supplement leaf compost
with plant based N sources, eg, alfalfa meal, organic cottonseed meal, soy
meal, etc....plus cover crops and green manures, compost teas etc. Her
extension research shtick means she uses alot of the evil 10-10-10, but
nonetheless found an inch of rotted leafies were just about as good....and
left the soil a whole lot better off!
The Nearings made veganic compost, and avoided dying for many decades, but
they had no kids, eh?
A Google Search for veganic compost found these hits, among others:
http://www.navs-online.org/voice/newart.html
http://www.organicpathways.co.nz/story.cfm?StoryID=190
http://www.ibiblio.org/london/permaculture/mailarchives/discussion-threads/s
oil-quality/0027.html
Eliot Coleman has done work on this, and cites to the O'Brien work before
him in his extensive bibliography. Of course, how can you believe in a guy
who steals eggs from hardworking slug eating ducks, eh?
;->
As far as John Jeavons goes, 'he timetable long, and he dogma be strong'.
John is one of your 'magicked by Chadwick' crowd. I think at Willits he is
trying for the 'full bootstrap' approach, with little or no outside inputs,
plus all that double digging and U-barring. Strenuous, but not ingenious,
methinks. Not without applicability, though.
Caveats to importing manure or leaves or what have you include:
possible presence of pesticides and pathogens in manures, eg, vermicides,
pass through larvicides, weed seed
possible presence of pesticides and trash in leaves and grass clippings, eg,
chlordane, clopyralid
http://www.jgpress.com/BCArticles/2001/070132.html
http://www.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/horsefly.html
"THE TRUTH ABOUT MANURE
My organic certifier says not to use horse manure from race barns or show
barns where a lot of wormers are used. The chemicals in the pass thru
wormers, like oral past wormers are noted for killing most of the micro herd
in the compost piles and really slowing down the process. It makes sense as
wormers are targeted to many of the critters that break down compost.
To be safe ask the barn you will be getting the manure from exactly what
they use on their horses. Almost all horses in the US are wormed every 4 to
8 weeks with ivermectin for strongids and other parasites. This wormer will
be in their manure. While this is a naturally occurring substance it can
kill a compost pile. Now I did use manure with lots of ivermectin in it and
it composted but it did take several months longer to get it finished than
the ivermectin free poop we now use. "
Lucy Goodman-Owsley, Boulder Belt Organics
http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
http://www.foodshare.net/grow-tcgn-feb26.htm
"I've never seen a successful application of soil building with plant-only
composts", is a statement that invites further inquiry. What criteria do you
use to judge successful soil building? Are you using 'the Force', and are
you Yoda, the young Luke Skywalker, er wot?
Does Will Bonsall's 20 years at Khadighar Farm count? Helen and Scott's long
tenures at their farms? Coleman's 15 years of trials? Dr Maynard's 12 years
of trials?
Or, have ye not visited the right places yet? Mebbe you need to follow
Samuel Clemens' advice and travel more, eh?
Finally, it isn't necessarily an either/or proposition, and animal based
preparations like 500, and small amounts of imported manures, can supply, at
least somewhat, that missing 'je ne sais quoi' where an actual ruminant
animal presence is not desirable. This is what I have understood from my own
theory collection and practical inquiries, as well as my own experience.
I recall that Jean-Paul Courtens, at Roxbury Farm, uses a combination of on
farm manure and off farm leaves to generate the organic matter he needs.
There, he uses the compost preparations in conjunction with a nearby compost
operator. This sort of flexible approach seems much more sensible to me than
determined adherence to the 'closed farm organism' paradigm, or the 'pile of
mammal manure only' concept.
Stepping down off my high pile of horse manure,
Frank Teuton
I
> understand it in non-biodynamic theory, but I've never seen a
> successful application of soil building with plant-only composts. As
> a point of fact, although John Jeavons advocates the use of
> plant-only compost, he timetable for building topsoil is unacceptably
> long and everyone I know who has visited his place in Willits has
> reported that the soils are unimpressive and that given the time and
> manpower he has ha access to, there should be more to show.
>
> I will say that Steve Moore of York PA does wonders in his 4-season
> greenhouse with plant-based composts (he uses plant-based compost
> because he feels that manure -based composts promote fungal problems
> in the greenhouse (ELAINE!!!) In his outdoor garden beds, however,
> Steve Moore uses LOTS of HORSEMANURE-based compost.
>
> Hopefully someone else will find the time to explain why we need the
> animal forces in our compost.
>
> For now I prefer to take the Missouri approach. (And I'm thinking
> manure from big, warm-blooded animals.)
>
> (Your turn.)
>
> -Allan
>
>
>
>
> > The
> >smaller animals will do an adequate job of manuring it. I say that not to
> >say that there is anything wrong with bring grazing animals into the
> >picture; this is likely desirable where it is possible. But, where these
> >animals are not available or even forbidden, other good options exist
which
> >can bring good results.
> >
> >Frank Teuton
>
