Mike --

I'm not convinced that Eric is interested in "threads, subject matter or discussion." Anyone who calls him a troll is accused of abridging his freedom of speech (which is the only freedom of speech that matters), but he does seem to fit the classic definition of a troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response."

As long as computers are sold with delete keys, I won't advocate banning Eric or moderating the bikies list. But I think it's a mistake to take him seriously -- unless you're bored and have nothing better to do.

On Nov 2, 2007, at 11:25 PM, Michael Rewey wrote:

I am tired of Eric changing the subject line. You can't follow any thread, subject matter or discussion.

--
Michael Rewey
Madison, WI
   cell     608.698.6673
   home  608.249.6673

---- Eric Westhagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Kirk,

Good try to show that bicycle advocacy crosses all boundaries and the
"rights of others."  Certainly advocacy groups tend to work in that
way.  Particularly when all the members and the purpose is of "one
mind." Advocacy groups are not concerned with the questions of "other's rights" or whether or not their "minority" should hold sway. After all, that is what a "pressure group" is all about. But, once again, that is
effective when the "pressure goup" is of "one mind."

Maybe the BFW IS OF ONE MIND.  Certainly most who write about this
question here are much of one mind in that "they ride bikes" and the
world had better "shape up." Maybe the group should "promote bicycling"
to others who do not bicycle.  I contend that bicycling in the rural
areas has been on the decline for years.  For seventeen years while I
have assembled and run a "totally free" annual time-trial race, called
the LOUIS REED TEN MILE TIME TRIAL, only a handful or two bother to
come.  It is a race for everybody on any kind of bicycle and where a
person "only races himself." The few years I have tried to promote this
race on "bikies" nobody from Madison or the list has come.  We hardly
have more riders that the corner guard volunteers in numbers. I don't claim that this alone points to the decline in the road bicycle, but I simply do not see any bicycles when I am out riding in the countryside.

Certainly an "advocacy group" has a mission to advocate with the power structure as it exists. It is silly to point fingers at my comments and suggest there is STATE control in most advocacy directions and is part
of advocacy.   We must deal with reality and the power structures as
they exist. But I point out that is not the same as advocating controls against one group at the expense of another. BFW should not pit their
"city cousins against their country cousins" over land rights and
broader issues.  And this is particularly true when the issue has no
direct bicycle connection, but merely addresses one's view on
interpreting, "quality of life."

Working for "top-down" STATE controls in the hopes that will encourage bicycle use is putting the horse before the cart. If more people ride bikes, bike friendly communities will AUTOMATICALLY follow. Of course
there should be bicycle infrastructure "in reason."  And that will
encourage children to ride bicycles more and longer.  It has been
pointed out that consumers of houses are hasty and don't demand in their own interest. Well, educate them on the advantages of bicycle trails in their neighborhoods and they will demand them. Right now consumers of new houses in most cases don't even demand sidewalks. Children are
driven to activities.  If their parents are "shown" how sidewalks and
bike trails could contribute, such would be universally demanded of and
offered in new development.

After people do populate a "cul de sac" community without even
sidewalks, and then they BECOME BICYCLE CONSCIOUS, they will demand that
their local politicians build with their "tax pie" bicycle
infrastructure.

Regardless of our drumbeat about how "unhealthy" Americans are, we are still in an age where personal health and exercise resonates with most adults. It is to this "market" a bicycle advocacy group should direct itself. There are only so many ways to exercise and if given a choice most might choose the "bicycle" over other means--that was the case with me. And in cities, the advocacy promotion subset is work commuting, the
primary issue in Madison.

Eric

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