+1 to Kevin: "Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained in our culture that these things are just 'accidents' that it will be difficult to see a shift in holding people accountable."
Personally I get that there's a difference between negligence and intent, when it comes to applying criminal punishment to a tragic "accident". But at a minimum, shouldn't someone whose careless driving causes serious harm, lose their driving privileges, and have to earn them back through driver education? (and I could ask the same for gun ownership) On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Kevin Luecke <kluec...@gmail.com> wrote: > There was a good piece in the State Journal a while back about charges > being filed (or not) in the case of car-bike crashes: > http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/when-cyclists-die-a- > closer-look-at-dane-county-crashes/article_d5068be2-0ff0-5b2 > 1-a31f-891890c9daf1.html > > I agree with Peter about the need for a Vulnerable Users law, and I worked > with the legislature a few years back while I was with the Bike Fed to pass > such a law; unfortunately it didn't make it out of committee. > > I also agree with Clayton that prosecutors should bring more cases to > trail and let juries decide about guilt. However, I also see the > prosecutors' point of view: in 2005 Jessica Bullen was stuck and killed by > a driver who admitted he WAS LOOKING AT THE BACK OF HIS THROAT IN HIS > MIRROR when he hit her. The driver was tried for negligent homicide, and > was acquitted by the jury! If you can't get a jury to convict in a case > like that, you are unlikely to get anywhere in cases without such a damning > statement from the driver. > > Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained in our culture that these things > are just "accidents" that it will be difficult to see a shift in holding > people accountable. > > Kevin > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> > To: "'Peter Gray'" <phg...@gmail.com>, <da...@silurian.org> > Cc: "'Bikies ListServe'" <bik...@danenet.org> > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:41:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt > > In addition to the vulnerable user law, we should encourage prosecutors to > file and try these cases (especially where a fellow cyclist is gone > forever), rather than just allow the prosecutor to claim they don’t think > they can win if it goes to trial. One side loses every single jury trial > that goes to verdict. I would expect that a surviving family member would > rather a prosecutor lose a jury trial than agree to a $200 fine and claim > the driver didn’t violate any criminal law. > > > > Further, the prosecutors in Wisconsin usually don’t even *file* a > criminal case against drivers who kill bicyclists, much less try them. If > they merely filed a criminal case, it is likely there would be a plea to a > criminal charge and the survivors would be able to give their thoughts to > the sentencing judge. Of the 110,241 criminal cases filed in Wisconsin > last year, 82,076 settled before trial with 25,398 getting dismissed before > trial. > > > > According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Statistics, in 2015, there were > 36,426 felony cases filed and 49,298 misdemeanors filed, along with 24,517 > criminal traffic cases. There were a total of 1,429 jury trials and 137 > court trials. It’s not too much to ask a prosecutor to file or try a case > where someone was killed by a person. > > > > From Peter’s link below where driver fell asleep behind the wheel, crossed > the center line and killed a fellow cyclist: > > “Winnebago County Asst. Dist. Atty. Anthony Prekop reviewed the case and > determined he would not be able to prove Noskowiak committed criminal > negligence, under current state law. That law would require Prekop to > convince a jury that Noskowiak knew or should have known that her actions > were likely to hurt or kill someone. > > She worked a night shift, felt tired and fell asleep at the wheel. > > “How do you convince a jury of her peers that this is criminal behavior?” > Prekop said. “We are bound by what the legislature dictates.” > > > > If A.D.A. Prekop would have filed and tried this case as homicide by > negligent operation of a vehicle contrary to Wis. Stat. 940.10, he would > have needed to prove: > > > > 1. Defendant operated vehicle (this would be stipulated to); > > 2. Defendant operated vehicle in manner constituting criminal > negligence which means: > > A. defendant’s operation of vehicle created risk of death or great bodily > harm (don’t think any juror would disagree that if you are asleep while > moving behind the wheel there is a risk of death) And > > B. risk of great bodily harm was unreasonable and substantial (don’t think > any juror would disagree that the risk of great bodily harm from sleeping > behind the wheel is unreasonable and substantial) AND > > C. the defendant should have been aware that his or her operation of a > vehicle created the unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great > bodily harm. (I have never fallen asleep behind the wheel, I have never > hit something or someone with a vehicle, I do not know any friends or > family who have fallen asleep behind the wheel. Before I fall asleep, I > start to feel tired. In my entire adult life I have never fallen asleep > standing up, using the bathroom, playing a game, talking to someone, riding > a bike, driving a car, or doing any other volitional act. **Unless someone > suffers from a medical condition where they fall asleep without any > warning, the person should be aware that they are about to fall asleep, and > at that point, they need to immediately stop driving.*** > > 3. Defendant’s criminal negligence caused the death of victim. > (non-issue. Driver crossed center line and struck and killed bicyclist > while sleeping behind the wheel. > > > > The lack of even charging or trying these cases infuriates me. Several > years ago, a Dane County A.D.A. filed a felony forgery case against a > person for signing the person’s name and also signing the person’s spouse’s > name to a check in the amount of $19.66 made out to both of them. > According to testimony in court, the person had signed the spouse’s name > many times before with permission, but during the time in question, the > bank new the couple was separating, so they refused to cash the check. > This case went to jury trial (a case involving a $19.66 check that was > never even cashed!). There was no victim! We won, the A.D.A. lost/jury > found the person not guilty. If a case like this can go to felony jury > trial, A.D.A.’s should at a minimum *file *criminal charges when someone > falls asleep while moving, crosses the centerline, and takes someone off of > this earth for ever and ever. > > > > Peace, > > > > Clay > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:32 PM via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> > wrote: > >> Send Bikies mailing list submissions to >> bikies@lists.danenet.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> bikies-requ...@lists.danenet.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> bikies-ow...@lists.danenet.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Bikies digest..." >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (via Bikies) >> 2. Re: crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (Peter Gray via Bikies) >> 3. Re: crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies) >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> >> To: bik...@danenet.org >> Cc: >> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:51:30 -0400 >> Subject: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt >> I saw this yesterday on my way to work: >> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-intersectio >> n-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212 >> >> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says: >> >> The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red >> signal violation. >> >> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone? >> >> -- >> -- >> darin burleigh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Peter Gray via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> >> To: da...@silurian.org >> Cc: Bikies ListServe <bik...@danenet.org> >> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 09:43:27 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt >> "What's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?" Often >> nothing. (also true if you remove the "not-quite" from your question) >> >> Here's a recent Wisconsin Bike Fed blog post about this issue: >> >> Fines Total $248 for Falling Asleep, Killing Father of Three >> <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/> >> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248- >> for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/ >> >> The Bike Fed has been working for years to change this. (just google >> wisconsin bike fed vulnerable user) If you want this to change, please >> join <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/> and >> support <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/> the Bike >> Fed. >> >> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/ >> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/ >> >> Peter >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> >> wrote: >> >>> I saw this yesterday on my way to work: >>> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-intersectio >>> n-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212 >>> >>> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says: >>> >>> The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red signal >>> violation. >>> >>> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone? >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> darin burleigh >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bikies mailing list >>> Bikies@lists.danenet.org >>> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org >>> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> >> To: "'Peter Gray'" <phg...@gmail.com>, <da...@silurian.org> >> Cc: "'Bikies ListServe'" <bik...@danenet.org> >> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:41:03 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt >> >> In addition to the vulnerable user law, we should encourage prosecutors >> to file and try these cases (especially where a fellow cyclist is gone >> forever), rather than just allow the prosecutor to claim they don’t think >> they can win if it goes to trial. One side loses every single jury trial >> that goes to verdict. I would expect that a surviving family member would >> rather a prosecutor lose a jury trial than agree to a $200 fine and claim >> the driver didn’t violate any criminal law. >> >> >> >> Further, the prosecutors in Wisconsin usually don’t even *file* a >> criminal case against drivers who kill bicyclists, much less try them. If >> they merely filed a criminal case, it is likely there would be a plea to a >> criminal charge and the survivors would be able to give their thoughts to >> the sentencing judge. Of the 110,241 criminal cases filed in Wisconsin >> last year, 82,076 settled before trial with 25,398 getting dismissed before >> trial. >> >> >> >> According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Statistics, in 2015, there were >> 36,426 felony cases filed and 49,298 misdemeanors filed, along with 24,517 >> criminal traffic cases. There were a total of 1,429 jury trials and 137 >> court trials. It’s not too much to ask a prosecutor to file or try a case >> where someone was killed by a person. >> >> >> >> From Peter’s link below where driver fell asleep behind the wheel, >> crossed the center line and killed a fellow cyclist: >> >> “Winnebago County Asst. Dist. Atty. Anthony Prekop reviewed the case and >> determined he would not be able to prove Noskowiak committed criminal >> negligence, under current state law. That law would require Prekop to >> convince a jury that Noskowiak knew or should have known that her actions >> were likely to hurt or kill someone. >> >> She worked a night shift, felt tired and fell asleep at the wheel. >> >> “How do you convince a jury of her peers that this is criminal behavior?” >> Prekop said. “We are bound by what the legislature dictates.” >> >> >> >> If A.D.A. Prekop would have filed and tried this case as homicide by >> negligent operation of a vehicle contrary to Wis. Stat. 940.10, he would >> have needed to prove: >> >> >> >> 1. Defendant operated vehicle (this would be stipulated to); >> >> 2. Defendant operated vehicle in manner constituting criminal >> negligence which means: >> >> A. defendant’s operation of vehicle created risk of death or great bodily >> harm (don’t think any juror would disagree that if you are asleep while >> moving behind the wheel there is a risk of death) And >> >> B. risk of great bodily harm was unreasonable and substantial (don’t >> think any juror would disagree that the risk of great bodily harm from >> sleeping behind the wheel is unreasonable and substantial) AND >> >> C. the defendant should have been aware that his or her operation of a >> vehicle created the unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great >> bodily harm. (I have never fallen asleep behind the wheel, I have never >> hit something or someone with a vehicle, I do not know any friends or >> family who have fallen asleep behind the wheel. Before I fall asleep, I >> start to feel tired. In my entire adult life I have never fallen asleep >> standing up, using the bathroom, playing a game, talking to someone, riding >> a bike, driving a car, or doing any other volitional act. **Unless someone >> suffers from a medical condition where they fall asleep without any >> warning, the person should be aware that they are about to fall asleep, and >> at that point, they need to immediately stop driving.*** >> >> 3. Defendant’s criminal negligence caused the death of victim. >> (non-issue. Driver crossed center line and struck and killed bicyclist >> while sleeping behind the wheel. >> >> >> >> The lack of even charging or trying these cases infuriates me. Several >> years ago, a Dane County A.D.A. filed a felony forgery case against a >> person for signing the person’s name and also signing the person’s spouse’s >> name to a check in the amount of $19.66 made out to both of them. >> According to testimony in court, the person had signed the spouse’s name >> many times before with permission, but during the time in question, the >> bank new the couple was separating, so they refused to cash the check. >> This case went to jury trial (a case involving a $19.66 check that was >> never even cashed!). There was no victim! We won, the A.D.A. lost/jury >> found the person not guilty. If a case like this can go to felony jury >> trial, A.D.A.’s should at a minimum *file *criminal charges when someone >> falls asleep while moving, crosses the centerline, and takes someone off of >> this earth for ever and ever. >> >> >> >> Peace, >> >> >> >> Clay >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter >> Gray via Bikies >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:43 AM >> *To:* da...@silurian.org >> *Cc:* Bikies ListServe <bik...@danenet.org> >> *Subject:* Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt >> >> >> >> "What's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?" Often >> nothing. (also true if you remove the "not-quite" from your question) >> >> >> >> Here's a recent Wisconsin Bike Fed blog post about this issue: >> >> >> Fines Total $248 for Falling Asleep, Killing Father of Three >> <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/> >> >> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248- >> for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/ >> >> >> >> The Bike Fed has been working for years to change this. (just google >> wisconsin bike fed vulnerable user) If you want this to change, please >> join <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/> and >> support <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/> the Bike >> Fed. >> >> >> >> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/ >> >> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/ >> >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> >> wrote: >> >> I saw this yesterday on my way to work: >> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-intersectio >> n-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212 >> >> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says: >> >> The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red signal >> violation. >> >> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone? >> >> -- >> -- >> darin burleigh >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bikies mailing list >> Bikies@lists.danenet.org >> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bikies mailing list >> Bikies@lists.danenet.org >> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org >> > -- > > -- > Kevin Luecke > Sent from my phone, please excuse any typos >
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