+1 to Kevin: "Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained in our culture that
these things are just 'accidents' that it will be difficult to see a shift
in holding people accountable."

Personally I get that there's a difference between negligence and intent,
when it comes to applying criminal punishment to a tragic "accident".

But at a minimum, shouldn't someone whose careless driving causes serious
harm, lose their driving privileges, and have to earn them back through
driver education? (and I could ask the same for gun ownership)


On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Kevin Luecke <kluec...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There was a good piece in the State Journal a while back about charges
> being filed (or not) in the case of car-bike crashes:
> http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/when-cyclists-die-a-
> closer-look-at-dane-county-crashes/article_d5068be2-0ff0-5b2
> 1-a31f-891890c9daf1.html
>
> I agree with Peter about the need for a Vulnerable Users law, and I worked
> with the legislature a few years back while I was with the Bike Fed to pass
> such a law; unfortunately it didn't make it out of committee.
>
> I also agree with Clayton that prosecutors should bring more cases to
> trail and let juries decide about guilt. However, I also see the
> prosecutors' point of view: in 2005 Jessica Bullen was stuck and killed by
> a driver who admitted he WAS LOOKING AT THE BACK OF HIS THROAT IN HIS
> MIRROR when he hit her. The driver was tried for negligent homicide, and
> was acquitted by the jury! If you can't get a jury to convict in a case
> like that, you are unlikely to get anywhere in cases without such a damning
> statement from the driver.
>
> Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained in our culture that these things
> are just "accidents" that it will be difficult to see a shift in holding
> people accountable.
>
> Kevin
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> To: "'Peter Gray'" <phg...@gmail.com>, <da...@silurian.org>
> Cc: "'Bikies ListServe'" <bik...@danenet.org>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:41:03 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>
> In addition to the vulnerable user law, we should encourage prosecutors to
> file and try these cases (especially where a fellow cyclist is gone
> forever), rather than just allow the prosecutor to claim they don’t think
> they can win if it goes to trial.  One side loses every single jury trial
> that goes to verdict.  I would expect that a surviving family member would
> rather a prosecutor lose a jury trial than agree to a $200 fine and claim
> the driver didn’t violate any criminal law.
>
>
>
> Further, the prosecutors in Wisconsin usually don’t even *file* a
> criminal case against drivers who kill bicyclists, much less try them.  If
> they merely filed a criminal case, it is likely there would be a plea to a
> criminal charge and the survivors would be able to give their thoughts to
> the sentencing judge.  Of the 110,241 criminal cases filed in Wisconsin
> last year, 82,076 settled before trial with 25,398 getting dismissed before
> trial.
>
>
>
> According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Statistics, in 2015, there were
> 36,426 felony cases filed and 49,298 misdemeanors filed, along with 24,517
> criminal traffic cases.  There were a total of 1,429 jury trials and 137
> court trials.  It’s not too much to ask a prosecutor to file or try a case
> where someone was killed by a person.
>
>
>
> From Peter’s link below where driver fell asleep behind the wheel, crossed
> the center line and killed a fellow cyclist:
>
> “Winnebago County Asst. Dist. Atty. Anthony Prekop reviewed the case and
> determined he would not be able to prove Noskowiak committed criminal
> negligence, under current state law. That law would require Prekop to
> convince a jury that Noskowiak knew or should have known that her actions
> were likely to hurt or kill someone.
>
> She worked a night shift, felt tired and fell asleep at the wheel.
>
> “How do you convince a jury of her peers that this is criminal behavior?”
> Prekop said. “We are bound by what the legislature dictates.”
>
>
>
> If A.D.A. Prekop would have filed and tried this case as homicide by
> negligent operation of a vehicle contrary to Wis. Stat. 940.10, he would
> have needed to prove:
>
>
>
> 1.    Defendant operated vehicle (this would be stipulated to);
>
> 2.    Defendant operated vehicle in manner constituting criminal
> negligence which means:
>
> A. defendant’s operation of vehicle created risk of death or great bodily
> harm (don’t think any juror would disagree that if you are asleep while
> moving behind the wheel there is a risk of death) And
>
> B. risk of great bodily harm was unreasonable and substantial (don’t think
> any juror would disagree that the risk of great bodily harm from sleeping
> behind the wheel is unreasonable and substantial) AND
>
> C. the defendant should have been aware that his or her operation of a
> vehicle created the unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great
> bodily harm.  (I have never fallen asleep behind the wheel, I have never
> hit something or someone with a vehicle, I do not know any friends or
> family who have fallen asleep behind the wheel.  Before I fall asleep, I
> start to feel tired.  In my entire adult life I have never fallen asleep
> standing up, using the bathroom, playing a game, talking to someone, riding
> a bike, driving a car, or doing any other volitional act. **Unless someone
> suffers from a medical condition where they fall asleep without any
> warning, the person should be aware that they are about to fall asleep, and
> at that point, they need to immediately stop driving.***
>
> 3.    Defendant’s criminal negligence caused the death of victim.
> (non-issue.  Driver crossed center line and struck and killed bicyclist
> while sleeping behind the wheel.
>
>
>
> The lack of even charging or trying these cases infuriates me.  Several
> years ago, a Dane County A.D.A. filed a felony forgery case against a
> person for signing the person’s name and also signing the person’s spouse’s
> name to a check in the amount of $19.66 made out to both of them.
> According to testimony in court, the person had signed the spouse’s name
> many times before with permission, but during the time in question, the
> bank new the couple was separating, so they refused to cash the check.
> This case went to jury trial (a case involving a $19.66 check that was
> never even cashed!).  There was no victim!  We won, the A.D.A. lost/jury
> found the person not guilty.  If a case like this can go to felony jury
> trial, A.D.A.’s should at a minimum *file *criminal charges when someone
> falls asleep while moving, crosses the centerline, and takes someone off of
> this earth for ever and ever.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> Clay
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:32 PM via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send Bikies mailing list submissions to
>>         bikies@lists.danenet.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         bikies-requ...@lists.danenet.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         bikies-ow...@lists.danenet.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Bikies digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (via Bikies)
>>    2. Re: crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (Peter Gray via Bikies)
>>    3. Re: crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
>> To: bik...@danenet.org
>> Cc:
>> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:51:30 -0400
>> Subject: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>> I saw this yesterday on my way to work:
>> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-intersectio
>> n-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212
>>
>> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says:
>>
>>    The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red
>> signal violation.
>>
>> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?
>>
>> --
>> --
>> darin burleigh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Peter Gray via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
>> To: da...@silurian.org
>> Cc: Bikies ListServe <bik...@danenet.org>
>> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 09:43:27 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>> "What's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?" Often
>> nothing. (also true if you remove the "not-quite" from your question)
>>
>> Here's a recent Wisconsin Bike Fed blog post about this issue:
>>
>> Fines Total $248 for Falling Asleep, Killing Father of Three
>> <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/>
>> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-
>> for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/
>>
>> The Bike Fed has been working for years to change this. (just google
>> wisconsin bike fed vulnerable user) If you want this to change, please
>> join <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/> and
>> support <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/> the Bike
>> Fed.
>>
>> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/
>> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I saw this yesterday on my way to work:
>>> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-intersectio
>>> n-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212
>>>
>>> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says:
>>>
>>>   The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red signal
>>> violation.
>>>
>>> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> darin burleigh
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bikies mailing list
>>> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
>>> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
>> To: "'Peter Gray'" <phg...@gmail.com>, <da...@silurian.org>
>> Cc: "'Bikies ListServe'" <bik...@danenet.org>
>> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:41:03 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>>
>> In addition to the vulnerable user law, we should encourage prosecutors
>> to file and try these cases (especially where a fellow cyclist is gone
>> forever), rather than just allow the prosecutor to claim they don’t think
>> they can win if it goes to trial.  One side loses every single jury trial
>> that goes to verdict.  I would expect that a surviving family member would
>> rather a prosecutor lose a jury trial than agree to a $200 fine and claim
>> the driver didn’t violate any criminal law.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, the prosecutors in Wisconsin usually don’t even *file* a
>> criminal case against drivers who kill bicyclists, much less try them.  If
>> they merely filed a criminal case, it is likely there would be a plea to a
>> criminal charge and the survivors would be able to give their thoughts to
>> the sentencing judge.  Of the 110,241 criminal cases filed in Wisconsin
>> last year, 82,076 settled before trial with 25,398 getting dismissed before
>> trial.
>>
>>
>>
>> According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Statistics, in 2015, there were
>> 36,426 felony cases filed and 49,298 misdemeanors filed, along with 24,517
>> criminal traffic cases.  There were a total of 1,429 jury trials and 137
>> court trials.  It’s not too much to ask a prosecutor to file or try a case
>> where someone was killed by a person.
>>
>>
>>
>> From Peter’s link below where driver fell asleep behind the wheel,
>> crossed the center line and killed a fellow cyclist:
>>
>> “Winnebago County Asst. Dist. Atty. Anthony Prekop reviewed the case and
>> determined he would not be able to prove Noskowiak committed criminal
>> negligence, under current state law. That law would require Prekop to
>> convince a jury that Noskowiak knew or should have known that her actions
>> were likely to hurt or kill someone.
>>
>> She worked a night shift, felt tired and fell asleep at the wheel.
>>
>> “How do you convince a jury of her peers that this is criminal behavior?”
>> Prekop said. “We are bound by what the legislature dictates.”
>>
>>
>>
>> If A.D.A. Prekop would have filed and tried this case as homicide by
>> negligent operation of a vehicle contrary to Wis. Stat. 940.10, he would
>> have needed to prove:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.    Defendant operated vehicle (this would be stipulated to);
>>
>> 2.    Defendant operated vehicle in manner constituting criminal
>> negligence which means:
>>
>> A. defendant’s operation of vehicle created risk of death or great bodily
>> harm (don’t think any juror would disagree that if you are asleep while
>> moving behind the wheel there is a risk of death) And
>>
>> B. risk of great bodily harm was unreasonable and substantial (don’t
>> think any juror would disagree that the risk of great bodily harm from
>> sleeping behind the wheel is unreasonable and substantial) AND
>>
>> C. the defendant should have been aware that his or her operation of a
>> vehicle created the unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great
>> bodily harm.  (I have never fallen asleep behind the wheel, I have never
>> hit something or someone with a vehicle, I do not know any friends or
>> family who have fallen asleep behind the wheel.  Before I fall asleep, I
>> start to feel tired.  In my entire adult life I have never fallen asleep
>> standing up, using the bathroom, playing a game, talking to someone, riding
>> a bike, driving a car, or doing any other volitional act. **Unless someone
>> suffers from a medical condition where they fall asleep without any
>> warning, the person should be aware that they are about to fall asleep, and
>> at that point, they need to immediately stop driving.***
>>
>> 3.    Defendant’s criminal negligence caused the death of victim.
>> (non-issue.  Driver crossed center line and struck and killed bicyclist
>> while sleeping behind the wheel.
>>
>>
>>
>> The lack of even charging or trying these cases infuriates me.  Several
>> years ago, a Dane County A.D.A. filed a felony forgery case against a
>> person for signing the person’s name and also signing the person’s spouse’s
>> name to a check in the amount of $19.66 made out to both of them.
>> According to testimony in court, the person had signed the spouse’s name
>> many times before with permission, but during the time in question, the
>> bank new the couple was separating, so they refused to cash the check.
>> This case went to jury trial (a case involving a $19.66 check that was
>> never even cashed!).  There was no victim!  We won, the A.D.A. lost/jury
>> found the person not guilty.  If a case like this can go to felony jury
>> trial, A.D.A.’s should at a minimum *file *criminal charges when someone
>> falls asleep while moving, crosses the centerline, and takes someone off of
>> this earth for ever and ever.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>>
>>
>> Clay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter
>> Gray via Bikies
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:43 AM
>> *To:* da...@silurian.org
>> *Cc:* Bikies ListServe <bik...@danenet.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>>
>>
>>
>> "What's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?" Often
>> nothing. (also true if you remove the "not-quite" from your question)
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's a recent Wisconsin Bike Fed blog post about this issue:
>>
>>
>> Fines Total $248 for Falling Asleep, Killing Father of Three
>> <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/>
>>
>> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-
>> for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/
>>
>>
>>
>> The Bike Fed has been working for years to change this. (just google
>> wisconsin bike fed vulnerable user) If you want this to change, please
>> join <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/> and
>> support <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/> the Bike
>> Fed.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/
>>
>> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I saw this yesterday on my way to work:
>> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-intersectio
>> n-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212
>>
>> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says:
>>
>>   The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red signal
>> violation.
>>
>> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?
>>
>> --
>> --
>> darin burleigh
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bikies mailing list
>> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
>> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bikies mailing list
>> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
>> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>>
> --
>
> --
> Kevin Luecke
> Sent from my phone, please excuse any typos
>
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