I agree this incident ought be reported as a preventable "crash", and not a
so-called "accident". .Accidents may and do happen, but referring to a
certain "crash" as an "accident" requires judgement on the part of the
reporter, who undoubtedly did not personally witness the incident.

Mike

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 11:32 PM, William Hauda via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

>     I echo John Rider's comments about describing these incidents as
> "accidents." Accidents have no cause, but the deaths of cyclists do.
>
> On 9/15/2016 11:11 PM, John Rider via Bikies wrote:
>
> This is going to take a consistent effort from lots of people to solve.
> Whenever we see someone use the term “accident,” we need to call them out
> and educate them to use the word “crash.”  Any radio report, any newspaper
> report, where ever.  There was just an article on Active.com entitled “How
> to Handle a Bike Accident” so I posted the following comment which received
> a couple of likes and another supportive comment:
>
>
>
> Please, please, please banish the word “accident” from your vocabulary.
> The word “accident” implies:  Oops, it just kind of happened, it couldn’t
> have been prevented, could have happened to anybody, I’m really sorry.  We
> need to call this what it is, it is a Crash.  Crashes are preventable
> occurrences where someone made a bad decision or was negligent and is at
> fault.  An accident is when a tree branch falls on or in front of you, or
> lightning strikes, or a squirrel runs out in front of you and causes you to
> crash.  (There’s that word again, you could make a strong case that the
> bicyclist was driving too fast for conditions and is responsible for not
> being able to safely avoid the squirrel.)  Crashes are no Accident!
>
>
>
> If we all keep responding consistently, maybe we will slowly change that
> “oops” attitude towards these crashes.  This is not to say that we should
> not also work on all of the channels people mentioned earlier in this
> thread, but all of us can work on that media bias and public perception of
> “accidents” and maybe eventually make a difference.
>
>
>
> John Rider
>
>
>
> *From:* Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org
> <bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org>] *On Behalf Of *Peter Gray via Bikies
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 10:21 PM
> *To:* Kevin Luecke <kluec...@gmail.com> <kluec...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Bikies ListServe <bik...@danenet.org> <bik...@danenet.org>;
> bikies@lists.danenet.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>
>
>
> +1 to Kevin: "Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained in our culture
> that these things are just 'accidents' that it will be difficult to see a
> shift in holding people accountable."
>
> Personally I get that there's a difference between negligence and intent,
> when it comes to applying criminal punishment to a tragic "accident".
>
> But at a minimum, shouldn't someone whose careless driving causes serious
> harm, lose their driving privileges, and have to earn them back through
> driver education? (and I could ask the same for gun ownership)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Kevin Luecke <kluec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There was a good piece in the State Journal a while back about charges
> being filed (or not) in the case of car-bike crashes:
>
> http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/when-cyclists-die-
> a-closer-look-at-dane-county-crashes/article_d5068be2-0ff0-
> 5b21-a31f-891890c9daf1.html
>
>
>
> I agree with Peter about the need for a Vulnerable Users law, and I worked
> with the legislature a few years back while I was with the Bike Fed to pass
> such a law; unfortunately it didn't make it out of committee.
>
>
>
> I also agree with Clayton that prosecutors should bring more cases to
> trail and let juries decide about guilt. However, I also see the
> prosecutors' point of view: in 2005 Jessica Bullen was stuck and killed by
> a driver who admitted he WAS LOOKING AT THE BACK OF HIS THROAT IN HIS
> MIRROR when he hit her. The driver was tried for negligent homicide, and
> was acquitted by the jury! If you can't get a jury to convict in a case
> like that, you are unlikely to get anywhere in cases without such a damning
> statement from the driver.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained in our culture that these things
> are just "accidents" that it will be difficult to see a shift in holding
> people accountable.
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> To: "'Peter Gray'" <phg...@gmail.com>, <da...@silurian.org>
> Cc: "'Bikies ListServe'" <bik...@danenet.org>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:41:03 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>
> In addition to the vulnerable user law, we should encourage prosecutors to
> file and try these cases (especially where a fellow cyclist is gone
> forever), rather than just allow the prosecutor to claim they don’t think
> they can win if it goes to trial.  One side loses every single jury trial
> that goes to verdict.  I would expect that a surviving family member would
> rather a prosecutor lose a jury trial than agree to a $200 fine and claim
> the driver didn’t violate any criminal law.
>
>
>
> Further, the prosecutors in Wisconsin usually don’t even *file* a
> criminal case against drivers who kill bicyclists, much less try them.  If
> they merely filed a criminal case, it is likely there would be a plea to a
> criminal charge and the survivors would be able to give their thoughts to
> the sentencing judge.  Of the 110,241 criminal cases filed in Wisconsin
> last year, 82,076 settled before trial with 25,398 getting dismissed before
> trial.
>
>
>
> According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Statistics, in 2015, there were
> 36,426 felony cases filed and 49,298 misdemeanors filed, along with 24,517
> criminal traffic cases.  There were a total of 1,429 jury trials and 137
> court trials.  It’s not too much to ask a prosecutor to file or try a case
> where someone was killed by a person.
>
>
>
> From Peter’s link below where driver fell asleep behind the wheel, crossed
> the center line and killed a fellow cyclist:
>
> “Winnebago County Asst. Dist. Atty. Anthony Prekop reviewed the case and
> determined he would not be able to prove Noskowiak committed criminal
> negligence, under current state law. That law would require Prekop to
> convince a jury that Noskowiak knew or should have known that her actions
> were likely to hurt or kill someone.
>
> She worked a night shift, felt tired and fell asleep at the wheel.
>
> “How do you convince a jury of her peers that this is criminal behavior?”
> Prekop said. “We are bound by what the legislature dictates.”
>
>
>
> If A.D.A. Prekop would have filed and tried this case as homicide by
> negligent operation of a vehicle contrary to Wis. Stat. 940.10, he would
> have needed to prove:
>
>
>
> 1.    Defendant operated vehicle (this would be stipulated to);
>
> 2.    Defendant operated vehicle in manner constituting criminal
> negligence which means:
>
> A. defendant’s operation of vehicle created risk of death or great bodily
> harm (don’t think any juror would disagree that if you are asleep while
> moving behind the wheel there is a risk of death) And
>
> B. risk of great bodily harm was unreasonable and substantial (don’t think
> any juror would disagree that the risk of great bodily harm from sleeping
> behind the wheel is unreasonable and substantial) AND
>
> C. the defendant should have been aware that his or her operation of a
> vehicle created the unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great
> bodily harm.  (I have never fallen asleep behind the wheel, I have never
> hit something or someone with a vehicle, I do not know any friends or
> family who have fallen asleep behind the wheel.  Before I fall asleep, I
> start to feel tired.  In my entire adult life I have never fallen asleep
> standing up, using the bathroom, playing a game, talking to someone, riding
> a bike, driving a car, or doing any other volitional act. **Unless someone
> suffers from a medical condition where they fall asleep without any
> warning, the person should be aware that they are about to fall asleep, and
> at that point, they need to immediately stop driving.***
>
> 3.    Defendant’s criminal negligence caused the death of victim.
> (non-issue.  Driver crossed center line and struck and killed bicyclist
> while sleeping behind the wheel.
>
>
>
> The lack of even charging or trying these cases infuriates me.  Several
> years ago, a Dane County A.D.A. filed a felony forgery case against a
> person for signing the person’s name and also signing the person’s spouse’s
> name to a check in the amount of $19.66 made out to both of them.
> According to testimony in court, the person had signed the spouse’s name
> many times before with permission, but during the time in question, the
> bank new the couple was separating, so they refused to cash the check.
> This case went to jury trial (a case involving a $19.66 check that was
> never even cashed!).  There was no victim!  We won, the A.D.A. lost/jury
> found the person not guilty.  If a case like this can go to felony jury
> trial, A.D.A.’s should at a minimum *file *criminal charges when someone
> falls asleep while moving, crosses the centerline, and takes someone off of
> this earth for ever and ever.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> Clay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:32 PM via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> wrote:
>
> Send Bikies mailing list submissions to
>         bikies@lists.danenet.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         bikies-requ...@lists.danenet.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         bikies-ow...@lists.danenet.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Bikies digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (via Bikies)
>    2. Re: crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (Peter Gray via Bikies)
>    3. Re: crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt (Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> To: bik...@danenet.org
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:51:30 -0400
> Subject: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
> I saw this yesterday on my way to work:
> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-
> intersection-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212
>
> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says:
>
>    The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red
> signal violation.
>
> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?
>
> --
> --
> darin burleigh
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Peter Gray via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> To: da...@silurian.org
> Cc: Bikies ListServe <bik...@danenet.org>
>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 09:43:27 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>
> "What's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?" Often
> nothing. (also true if you remove the "not-quite" from your question)
>
>
>
> Here's a recent Wisconsin Bike Fed blog post about this issue:
>
>
> Fines Total $248 for Falling Asleep, Killing Father of Three
> <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/>
>
> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-
> 248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/
>
>
>
> The Bike Fed has been working for years to change this. (just google
> wisconsin bike fed vulnerable user) If you want this to change, please
> join <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/> and
> support <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/> the Bike
> Fed.
>
>
>
> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/
>
> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> wrote:
>
> I saw this yesterday on my way to work:
> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-
> intersection-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212
>
> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says:
>
>   The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red signal
> violation.
>
> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?
>
> --
> --
> darin burleigh
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Clayton Griessmeyer via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> To: "'Peter Gray'" <phg...@gmail.com>, <da...@silurian.org>
> Cc: "'Bikies ListServe'" <bik...@danenet.org>
>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:41:03 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>
> In addition to the vulnerable user law, we should encourage prosecutors to
> file and try these cases (especially where a fellow cyclist is gone
> forever), rather than just allow the prosecutor to claim they don’t think
> they can win if it goes to trial.  One side loses every single jury trial
> that goes to verdict.  I would expect that a surviving family member would
> rather a prosecutor lose a jury trial than agree to a $200 fine and claim
> the driver didn’t violate any criminal law.
>
>
>
> Further, the prosecutors in Wisconsin usually don’t even *file* a
> criminal case against drivers who kill bicyclists, much less try them.  If
> they merely filed a criminal case, it is likely there would be a plea to a
> criminal charge and the survivors would be able to give their thoughts to
> the sentencing judge.  Of the 110,241 criminal cases filed in Wisconsin
> last year, 82,076 settled before trial with 25,398 getting dismissed before
> trial.
>
>
>
> According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Statistics, in 2015, there were
> 36,426 felony cases filed and 49,298 misdemeanors filed, along with 24,517
> criminal traffic cases.  There were a total of 1,429 jury trials and 137
> court trials.  It’s not too much to ask a prosecutor to file or try a case
> where someone was killed by a person.
>
>
>
> From Peter’s link below where driver fell asleep behind the wheel, crossed
> the center line and killed a fellow cyclist:
>
> “Winnebago County Asst. Dist. Atty. Anthony Prekop reviewed the case and
> determined he would not be able to prove Noskowiak committed criminal
> negligence, under current state law. That law would require Prekop to
> convince a jury that Noskowiak knew or should have known that her actions
> were likely to hurt or kill someone.
>
> She worked a night shift, felt tired and fell asleep at the wheel.
>
> “How do you convince a jury of her peers that this is criminal behavior?”
> Prekop said. “We are bound by what the legislature dictates.”
>
>
>
> If A.D.A. Prekop would have filed and tried this case as homicide by
> negligent operation of a vehicle contrary to Wis. Stat. 940.10, he would
> have needed to prove:
>
>
>
> 1.    Defendant operated vehicle (this would be stipulated to);
>
> 2.    Defendant operated vehicle in manner constituting criminal
> negligence which means:
>
> A. defendant’s operation of vehicle created risk of death or great bodily
> harm (don’t think any juror would disagree that if you are asleep while
> moving behind the wheel there is a risk of death) And
>
> B. risk of great bodily harm was unreasonable and substantial (don’t think
> any juror would disagree that the risk of great bodily harm from sleeping
> behind the wheel is unreasonable and substantial) AND
>
> C. the defendant should have been aware that his or her operation of a
> vehicle created the unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great
> bodily harm.  (I have never fallen asleep behind the wheel, I have never
> hit something or someone with a vehicle, I do not know any friends or
> family who have fallen asleep behind the wheel.  Before I fall asleep, I
> start to feel tired.  In my entire adult life I have never fallen asleep
> standing up, using the bathroom, playing a game, talking to someone, riding
> a bike, driving a car, or doing any other volitional act. **Unless someone
> suffers from a medical condition where they fall asleep without any
> warning, the person should be aware that they are about to fall asleep, and
> at that point, they need to immediately stop driving.***
>
> 3.    Defendant’s criminal negligence caused the death of victim.
> (non-issue.  Driver crossed center line and struck and killed bicyclist
> while sleeping behind the wheel.
>
>
>
> The lack of even charging or trying these cases infuriates me.  Several
> years ago, a Dane County A.D.A. filed a felony forgery case against a
> person for signing the person’s name and also signing the person’s spouse’s
> name to a check in the amount of $19.66 made out to both of them.
> According to testimony in court, the person had signed the spouse’s name
> many times before with permission, but during the time in question, the
> bank new the couple was separating, so they refused to cash the check.
> This case went to jury trial (a case involving a $19.66 check that was
> never even cashed!).  There was no victim!  We won, the A.D.A. lost/jury
> found the person not guilty.  If a case like this can go to felony jury
> trial, A.D.A.’s should at a minimum *file *criminal charges when someone
> falls asleep while moving, crosses the centerline, and takes someone off of
> this earth for ever and ever.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> Clay
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter
> Gray via Bikies
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:43 AM
> *To:* da...@silurian.org
> *Cc:* Bikies ListServe <bik...@danenet.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bikies] crash @ Mdvale/Mineral Pt
>
>
>
> "What's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?" Often
> nothing. (also true if you remove the "not-quite" from your question)
>
>
>
> Here's a recent Wisconsin Bike Fed blog post about this issue:
>
>
> Fines Total $248 for Falling Asleep, Killing Father of Three
> <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/>
>
> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/2016/03/30/fines-total-
> 248-for-falling-asleep-killing-father-of-three/
>
>
>
> The Bike Fed has been working for years to change this. (just google
> wisconsin bike fed vulnerable user) If you want this to change, please
> join <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/> and
> support <http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/> the Bike
> Fed.
>
>
>
> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/individual-members/
>
> http://www.wisconsinbikefed.org/join/supportdonate/
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> wrote:
>
> I saw this yesterday on my way to work:
> http://www.channel3000.com/news/Bicyclist-hit-at-
> intersection-when-driver-runs-red-light-officials-say/41667212
>
> The article says they were "non-life threatening" injuries. It also says:
>
>   The driver of the truck, a 36-year-old man, was cited for a red signal
> violation.
>
> So, what's the penalty for carelessly not-quite-killing someone?
>
> --
> --
> darin burleigh
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
> --
>
> --
> Kevin Luecke
> Sent from my phone, please excuse any typos
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bikies mailing 
> listBikies@lists.danenet.orghttp://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
>
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