Hi Weiji, and Everyone, I think this is an important topic so sharing my two cents in case in helps: It makes sense for users to know that they can't merely just translate a word from one language into another and expect the same underlying entropy to be mapped, as the wordlists are not the same (i.e. words differ at the same index values across languages).
However, while the words for each language cannot translate directly to their equivalent in another language, in terms of entropy (bits), the underlying entropy is, in fact, the same, when comparing mnemonics generated across languages (see English/Spanish comparison below) when sourced from the same initial entropy. Importantly, the entropy is a pre-image of the resulting mnemonic and doesn't change as the language changes, where the only changes are to the resulting words which depend on the language chosen, for a given entropy string. Ideally, the wallet/software should deal with these nuances, I don't think the protocol needs any revision (except for how the BIP39 seed is derived, perhaps), even if someone made up their own wordlist, as long as the wallet/software has a copy of it to map those words to the underlying index values, it's *those underlying index values and the entropy they map too is what really matters**. * I fully support the idea for users to back up this pre-image (initial entropy) as it can also be used to check the validity of the mnemonic and check that it mapped correctly, see Ian Coleman's BIP39 tool which shows index values, a feature that I proposed last year and was since implemented. Below is an example of how two mnemonics generated with the same entropy will produce different BIP39 seeds. * Example initial entropy of 128 bits +4 bit checksum derived from hash of byte array: * 10001101000 01010100100 11011010000 11100001101 01010001101 00010010001 01100000010 10101110100 00100100011 11110000111 01100011010 1100010 (+1110 checksum) *In English*: minimum fee sure ticket faculty banana gate purse caught valley globe shift The same initial entropy above (all 132 bits) produces this mnemonic: *In Spanish*: mercado faja soledad tarea evadir aries gafas peine búho tumor gerente reja And the underlying index values below are the same for both the English and Spanish mnemonics above: Word Indexes: 1128, 676, 1744, 1805, 653, 145, 770, 1396, 291, 1927, 794, 1582 *ISSUE AT HAND*: While the initial entropy is the same, and word indexes the same for a given entropy, (i.e. same pre-image), the resulting BIP39 seed is not the same when comparing the above English mnemonic with its Spanish counterpart: - *English BIP39 seed:* ce7618075099c89e986f18dc495daa3be190450ed07bef77d4334a54dbc1cd7e205797ffed2615ac0999a5d691f65bf316e2cdbfd2c9d7d90b03e77ff1e6a6f5 - *Spanish BIP39 seed*: 9f164de0fb09af51b5831886e424d6d2479d49b5e5a1b28f5c09467ea36089b144cd94bb9b636b3c27ccff96a8958e5b7ce43cf1dea81423fc66fa7fef0aea2c *Option 1:* Without changing anything in terms of the entropy generation/mapping process in the BIP39 spec, the wallet/client-side software would ideally recognize the language and show the corresponding index value per wordlist, and reverse-calculate the entropy and then re-map it to the language selected. *Option 2*: Perhaps a revision is needed to how the BIP39 seed is generated in the first place, such as by hashing the entropy instead of the words. Any thoughts on how viable that could be where the initial entropy is fed into the PBKDF2 function and not the words? *Closing thoughts and tiny checksum nitpick: * - The multiple BIP39 seeds per language lend some similarities to BIP44 multi-account, so perhaps this can be an advantage, depends on how it is applied in UI/UX's (compared to having one BIP39 seed regardless of language, for a given initial entropy). - There is perhaps an opportunity to add greater detail to the BIP39 spec in terms of standards/best-practices for computing checksum values, as some software may be hashing bits, versus hashing bytes, or hashing the entropy as a hex string, etc.. for a given entropy, which will result in different checksum values for the same "valid" mnemonic, that might not be "valid" in another wallet which may format the data differently before hashing to compute the checksum. Best regards, Steven Hatzakis _______________ [bitcoin-dev] BIP- & SLIP-0039 -- better multi-language support*Weiji Guo* weiji.g at gmail.com <bitcoin-dev%40lists.linuxfoundation.org?Subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bbitcoin-dev%5D%20%20BIP-%20%26%20SLIP-0039%20--%20better%20multi-language%20support&In-Reply-To=%3CCA%2Bydi%3DLM%2Bq-9WKewb%3D65tWCqM1cPMoWEeWq5XAxdqg4rz%3DZJ6g%40mail.gmail.com%3E> *Tue Nov 6 16:16:41 UTC 2018* - Previous message: [bitcoin-dev] draft proposal: change forwarding (improved fungibility through wallet interoperability) <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/016469.html> - Next message: [bitcoin-dev] Considering starting a toy full-node implementation. Any advice? <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/016470.html> - *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/date.html#16468> [ thread ] <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/thread.html#16468> [ subject ] <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/subject.html#16468> [ author ] <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/author.html#16468> ------------------------------ Hello everyone, I just realized that BIP-0039 is language dependent. I was assuming the other way till I looked closer. The way the seed is derived from a BIP-0039 entropy, as is shown below, depends on which language to generate the mnemonic sentence: Entropy <=> Mnemonic Sentence => PBKDF2 => BIP-0032 Seed Therefore when a user choose a non-English mnemonic code he or she is stuck with that language. Meanwhile only a few native languages are supported. SLIP-0039 does not solve this issue in a user friendly way by providing only an English wordlist. That's understandable as it aims to provide SSS capability. However those users who do not speak English or recognize English words will suffer. What I am trying to bring to attention of the community is that, no matter if we make a new version of BIP-0039, or a new BIP (with SSS support), or to enhance SLIP-0039, we really need to address this language issue. Here are what I propose: 1. The mnemonic code should be only a representation of underlying entropy or (pre) master secret, seed, whatever. In this way, the same seed/secret could be displayed in English or in Chinese or other languages. Then there could be 3rd party conversion tools to support translations in case any wallet software or device does not support all specified languages. Now it looks like: Mnemonic Sentence <=> Entropy => PBKDF2 => BIP-0032 Seed 2. Given that only 8 languages are supported in BIP-0039, we should allow the seed/secret to be represented in decimal numbers, each ranging from 0 to 2047. So those who cannot find a native language support yet having difficulty coping words in other languages could choose to just use numbers. So far I don't have a preference how this should be implemented. I'd like to hear from community first. Thanks, Weiji Guo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20181107/88677440/attachment.html> ------------------------------ - Previous message: [bitcoin-dev] draft proposal: change forwarding (improved fungibility through wallet interoperability) <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/016469.html> - Next message: [bitcoin-dev] Considering starting a toy full-node implementation. 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