Yeah, it's changed my outlook too. I've been sending the odd message from this thread onto my wife as well. She's partial in one eye, and has recently gotten dead interested in all this stuff, since Google Maps took us alongside a canal late at night, and she suddenly realised her lovely vision she'd relied and prided herself on wasn't worth squat when faced with darkness she couldn't penetrate, near water she couldn't swim in, with nobody she could rely on, other than a husband she wasn't entirely happy with relinquishing navigational control to.
Needless to say, she's now had cane training under blindfold. Take care, Chris Norman On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 05:06, Christy S <christys1...@gmail.com> wrote: > From a purely analytical standpoint I'm fascinated too. > > > I think the main point though is, if someone's brain doesn't know how to > grasp a concept due to wiring from very early on for whatever reason, it > can't just be taught. This is important, because if more people understood > this, I think there would be a lot less judgmental attitudes in the blind > community toward those who can't do spatial concepts. I point at myself > saying this, because I've at least thought similar things like sheesh, > didn't get you good training? Or WTF, how do you get lost in a kitchen? > With a better understanding now I know better. So while games or other > software might very well help with things like say, being able to memorize > turns for those who have a hard time mapping something in their brain, it's > not going to be able to just fix the issue. Now of course, if the real > issue actually was a lack of training, or severe sheltering to the point of > never being able to learn something and I know these things do happen, then > you've got a completely different thing going on. > > > I do love this discussion, though. > > > On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote: > > That's really interesting! > > It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. A > developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn > fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about your > experiences with things. > > As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if you > feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material > recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was safe to > hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through glass? > > I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met another > blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd heard of > where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box in broad > daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone box were > transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp why you > wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how anyone who > can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in the end, but it > strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would probably know that > instinctively, because kids are obviously going to tell you how they caught > you. > > Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going back > on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I think it was > you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head. > > To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is any > way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get a handle > on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film are the > answer. > > What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce a > system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual map of a > given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on your computer, > but would that even help? Or would that just over complicate things? > > The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like heavy > traffic, or road works making a ton of noise, low-flying helicopters, high > winds, that kind of thing. > > MMM, the mind races! > > Take care, > > Chris Norman > > > > On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:55, Jessica Hodges <jlhodg...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hello. >> I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to >> how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me to >> wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do something, she >> didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do things even when I >> didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my favorite childhood games, >> because I've always liked small places and I liked finding unusual spots >> for me and my three brothers, (two more would come later) to hide. I >> would often wrestle with them, slide down the stairs with them on my >> back, and other assorted things, so I think its safe to say that, while >> I tended towards staying in and reading books, that I was not cut off >> from physical activity and exploration. And yet, when I was younger, I'd >> get lost even on my own block. My mother says, when I was really small, >> I even had trouble with getting off the porch. Thankfully by now I have >> progressed, (mostly,) to the point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm >> really confused, that wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example, >> don't understand how going around a block gets you to the same point you >> started from because you turned and had to walk along streets in the >> process, and I did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner just >> a block away where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I >> managed to do that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's >> quite where the connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it >> has to do, more than anything, with how the brain is wired. Coddling or >> the lack thereof, frankly, won't fix that. >> I hope this ramble of a message has made sense, and beg pardon if it >> didn't, it has been written before breakfast by a very sleepy person. :) >> Jessica. >> >> On 7/31/2020 5:16 AM, Damien Garwood wrote: >> > Hi Chris, >> > People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never >> > grasp that! >> > As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have >> > then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting >> > yourself. Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you >> > regardless of how you get around, so you may as well just bite the >> > bullet. It's sad when having a disability and being able to adapt life >> > so you can attempt to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced by >> > others, even in the 21st century. In short, it makes me sick to think >> > that a blind person doesn't want to seem or look blind because of >> > society's expectations. >> > As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really >> > the physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs >> > would hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because I'm >> > actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a gun, >> > I might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic shooting >> > a long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming pool, you >> > might get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be no swimming! >> > My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever >> > quite knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was born). My >> > mum has difficulties showing and explaining things to me even now, so >> > you can imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a kid. >> > In fact, I always remember there were arguments between the school and >> > my mum as to who should be teaching me basic practical skills (like >> > dealing with different types of fastenings, using hooks, working out >> > which is the right way to put clothes on, handling money and so on). >> > I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That seems a >> > bit harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be allowed >> > to have a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety regulations >> > have gone to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on >> > chairs due to the risk that they'll snap from underneath us! >> > Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind people >> > could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I went >> > to boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so that >> > would have been out of the question anyway. >> > Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound >> > really awesome, and are games that I would have never even dreamt of >> > doing. Just goes to show what's possible with the right support >> > network! Bet you're going to tell me you even had a go at writing and >> > drawing and painting next! >> > As for the last part of your message, yup, I fit all three of those >> > brackets, unfortunately. It took me seven years (yes, you read that >> > correctly, seven) to learn how to use a touchscreen phone because of >> > my fine motor skills (or lack thereof). >> > Cheers, >> > Damien. >> > >> > On 31/07/2020 09:31 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff >> >> too well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location. Now I'm >> >> a bit older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I >> >> cheerily exchange looking competent for feeling safer. >> >> >> >> In my experience - both through people I know, and people I work with >> >> - the main difference between people who can mental map "well", and >> >> those who can "not so well", seems to be the level and complexities >> >> of physical activities they performed when younger. >> >> >> >> For adults, this seems to be more how bloody minded they are: Those >> >> who approach their new found blindness as a challenge tend to get out >> >> there fairly quickly, and take the knocks while they haven't had the >> >> chance to think through how awful things could be. Those who sit back >> >> and worry about it tend to have worried themselves into a frenzy by >> >> the time it becomes necessary to get up and actually do something. In >> >> my experience, it's that latter group who struggle. >> >> >> >> If any of you have kids, I beg you to not be like the parents I have >> >> to work with, who mollycoddle their kids. Be that parent who lets >> >> their kids climb trees, build fires, and run around with their mates. >> >> Show them how to use tools like knives and drills. Let them get cut, >> >> and burnt and gather blisters. Seriously, so many people tell me how >> >> amazing I am. I don't see it personally, I just think I had normal >> >> parents who weren't afraid to let me take the knocks, but it's a >> >> parenting style I see less and less these days. >> >> >> >> When I was younger, I used to play hide and seek with my sighted >> >> sister and her friends. The learning went both ways: I learnt that I >> >> couldn't just stand quietly in the centre of a room, and they learnt >> >> that they couldn't just stand in front of me and stay still. Mutual >> >> respect earnt and gained. >> >> >> >> If you want games, hide and seek has to be natures best way of >> >> teaching blind and sighted kids a whole multitude of stuff: How to >> >> move quietly, what materials are transparent, and which ones only >> >> show shadows, how much noise a still body makes, how big a space you >> >> can fit your body in. >> >> >> >> Sadly, I think in this modern world of liability, correct speaking, >> >> and buck-passing, it's far easier to shove kids into a corner and let >> >> them play a computer game than to invent something amazing. >> >> >> >> If you're looking for an amazing experience that doesn't involve >> >> spacial awareness, shut down your computer, get yourself a >> >> tambourine, and fill it with crap. Pass it round a circle without >> >> making a noise. Every time it goes around the circle, remove a piece >> >> of stuff from it... Make sure there's balls, and pens, and anything >> >> else that will roll inside it. That will teach you to hold stuff >> >> level. A few rounds of that, and you'll not be confused as to which >> >> way you're holding your cup of tea. >> >> >> >> Seriously, kids learn from play! It's our job as gamers to make sure >> >> as many of the next generation of blind folks as possible get the >> >> best input when it really counts, before they get old enough to >> >> realise their fine motor skills are shot because they always had the >> >> more delicate things done for them, they can't find anything because >> >> they were always guided, and they have their own deficiencies lodged >> >> in their brains because everyone said "Oh, you can't do that". >> >> >> >> There endeth today's sirman! :P >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Chris Norman >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 05:53, Christy S <christys1...@gmail.com >> >> <mailto:christys1...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Damien and others, >> >> >> >> >> >> I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts >> >> depending >> >> on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few days got me >> >> thinking about this. >> >> >> >> >> >> First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said 6:00 is >> >> that >> >> many people refer to directions using the face of a clock. Not a >> >> digital >> >> one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an hour and >> >> minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a lot of >> >> detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all >> >> intended >> >> there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you. >> >> >> >> >> >> I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial >> >> awareness, >> >> however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial awareness >> >> as a >> >> foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more recently that >> I >> >> realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the >> >> people I >> >> had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also had other >> >> cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I >> >> lumped the >> >> two together in my mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial awareness, or >> >> mental >> >> mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping >> >> before I >> >> knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I could do >> >> this >> >> so well had to do with having a little sight when I was younger, >> >> thus >> >> helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really, >> >> when I >> >> map something in my head, it's more like picturing a miniature >> >> version >> >> of the space as I understand it. For example, I can sit here on >> >> my bed >> >> in the bedroom and picture the entire layout of this apartment, >> >> including where furniture and other large items are. I can even >> >> picture >> >> the basic layout of a house I lived in over 15 years ago, and using >> >> that >> >> mentally plan how I could get from any one point to any second >> >> point, in >> >> either place. >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyway, I've recently been talking to someone I now consider a good >> >> friend, and this person struggles a lot with any kind of spatial >> >> awareness. Their general intelligence, though, is totally fine, >> >> with no >> >> other cognitive difficulties that I'm aware of. Likewise, reading >> >> Damien's message here, I don't see any hint of cognitive delays and >> >> that >> >> just confirms to me that I need to very much rethink that >> >> subconscious >> >> connection my mind has made. Unfortunately, this is common in the >> >> blind >> >> community. If a blind person isn't out walking everywhere, taking >> >> public >> >> transit all the time etc, they tend to be seen as either dumb or >> >> lazy. >> >> If a person admits they can't figure out on their own how to get >> >> to a >> >> place two blocks away, they're often met with shocked disapproval >> or >> >> worse. I mentioned to this friend that the house I used to live in >> >> had a >> >> very large, wide open kitchen as the center of the house and they >> >> just >> >> groaned. In fact, a different friend who sadly has since passed >> >> who had >> >> similar struggles and would get utterly disoriented in that >> kitchen. >> >> She >> >> could be standing by the fridge, and no matter how many times we >> had >> >> shown her before, could not figure out how to get to a bedroom >> >> that was >> >> probably 10 or 15 feet away. Looking back now, my then roommate >> >> and I >> >> could have handled that situation very differently and more >> >> gracefully. >> >> We just could not understand why she wasn't getting it. >> >> >> >> >> >> The fact is, for whatever reason, there are those who, in addition >> >> to or >> >> because of blindness, literally don't have the mental ability to >> >> understand spatial concepts. It's not that they don't want to, or >> >> that >> >> they just haven't been taught right, but their brain quite >> literally >> >> can't process that kind of information. I think there might be some >> >> connection between that and never having sight, but it also seems >> >> to be >> >> a lot more complicated than that with certain eye conditions >> >> playing a >> >> part. The best parallel I can think of us for those of us who >> >> have no >> >> memory of sight, having someone try to explain colors to us. We can >> >> memorize certain things, red is hot for example, but our brains >> >> don't >> >> have the ability to bring what that color looks like into our minds >> >> because there's no concept of vision or varying colors to build on. >> >> >> >> >> >> This sounds very similar to what you're dealing with Damien. I >> would >> >> never discourage attempting to learn, and if you can find a way >> that >> >> works for you, that is totally awesome. If you can't, though, >> please >> >> don't think that it means you are stupid or any other negative >> >> thing. It >> >> could simply be that your brain isn't wired to be able to process >> >> spatial concepts for whatever reason, and you should stick with >> >> whatever >> >> methods work for you. >> >> >> >> >> >> For those of us who do have that kind of spatial awareness, I >> really >> >> hope we can all be understanding and not wave off these types of >> >> limitations as stupidity or laziness or anything of the sort. I'm >> >> talking to myself here too. As for those that find these 3d or 2d >> >> audio >> >> games overwhelming and confusing, I hope you can find others that >> >> work >> >> for you. Side scrollers come to mind, as those generally only have >> >> forward and backward, sometimes up and down. This entire thing >> >> has me >> >> pondering ideas for emersive audio games with excellent >> >> storylines that >> >> don't require the ability to navigate as a primary skill for >> >> gameplay. >> >> >> >> >> >> Christy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/27/2020 1:15 PM, Damien Garwood wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> >> > This will be quite a long message, because I'm starting to >> >> realise >> >> > just how complicated spatial awareness can actually be. >> >> > This is a thing I've been struggling with for years. I only >> >> managed A >> >> > Hero's Call because following a beacon is like playing a reflex >> >> game. >> >> > It says north, you turn around until it says north. Even then >> >> though, >> >> > someone had to tell me that. I have no real understanding as >> >> to what >> >> > that means or where I'm going. In fact, during times when you >> >> can't >> >> > rely on beacons to get you places (like the goblin campsites >> >> and so >> >> > on), someone actually had to do that for me! >> >> > As for Tank Commander, if it weren't for Raul's playthrough, I >> >> would >> >> > have never beaten it. >> >> > Same in the real world, I always struggled with mobility. When I >> >> > learned a route it was a case of remembering a set of >> >> instructions. >> >> > That's why I often call it the "Bop-it dance" or the "Robot's >> >> dance". >> >> > Think about it...Walk 20, turn right, walk 10...Just a glorified >> >> > algorithm. >> >> > If someone tells me to try and do the route in reverse, I >> >> wouldn't >> >> > have a clue. >> >> > You tell me to turn right, and I can do it. You ask me what's >> >> to the >> >> > left of me, or what direction are the stairs from my front >> >> door, I'd >> >> > have no idea, without physically going there. When my mum used >> to >> >> tell >> >> > me to get out of the car and walk round the back, I wouldn't >> know >> >> what >> >> > direction that was, because once I'm out of the car my >> >> direction has >> >> > changed. And then there's the big one. If cars are moving >> >> forwards >> >> > then why do they pan left to right? Or, if I'm sat in a vehicle >> >> that's >> >> > reversing, why does it feel like it's moving forwards? What am I >> >> told? >> >> > Surprise surprise, it's to do with directions again. And they >> all >> >> have >> >> > one thing in common - it's the direction your facing. >> >> > I always thought that, although I could move in a given >> >> direction, I >> >> > always struggled when I faced a different direction to what I'm >> >> used to. >> >> > My mum disagrees, and puts it like this: I don't have any >> "mental >> >> > mapping skills". Thinking about it, I guess I can say that's >> >> accurate. >> >> > I never know where I am relative to other things, or where >> >> they are >> >> > relative to me (Unless of course I can reach out and physically >> >> touch >> >> > it). >> >> > I guess that's why I wasn't taught other forms of navigation. >> >> compass >> >> > directions are just a series of meaningless words to me. All I >> >> know is >> >> > that the compass has something to do with the sun. >> >> > And don't even get me started on the clockface...When I tried 3d >> >> > Velocity and it told me there was an enemy at 06:00, I >> >> actually went >> >> > looking in the manual for a way to check the gametime! Of course >> >> > there's nothing in there, then someone corrected me and said, >> no, >> >> it's >> >> > referencing direction, not time. As far as I know, I hit a >> >> button on >> >> > my clock or computer and it tells me the time. What on earth has >> >> that >> >> > got to do with directions? I guess the only thing I can think >> >> of is >> >> > that they say the past is behind you and the future is in >> >> > front...Headache tablets anyone? >> >> > I've also seen things like turning to 90 or 160 (they just sound >> >> like >> >> > arbitrary numbers to me). Eurofly deals with latitude >> >> longitude and >> >> > altitude. There just seems to be so much to consider with space. >> >> > I'd just say give me an x and a y coordinate. But then I've seen >> >> that >> >> > in different ways (0 0 being bottom left in some cases, and >> >> top left >> >> > in others, and then someone told me that could also refer to the >> >> > centre under some circumstances as well). Also I've had >> >> disputes in >> >> > the past as to whether the Y coordinate represents forwards and >> >> > backwards, or up and down. I always thought z was up and down, >> >> but >> >> > they'd argue that when you're talking 2d, y is up and down. But >> I >> >> > thought if you're working with 2d, you're talking about >> something >> >> > that's flat (unless of course you're playing BK3!) >> >> > Then, as if that wasn't enough, even my certainty about up and >> >> down >> >> > came into question a few months ago when I learned that the >> world >> >> was >> >> > just a big ball. In that case, people on the other side of the >> >> ball >> >> > would say that their up was our down...And then they told me the >> >> earth >> >> > is spinning, so our directions are always changing >> >> anyway...Sheesh! >> >> > Thank goodness we don't have that level of complexity in games! >> >> > Honestly. Sometimes I think I ought to have a physics degree >> >> if I'm >> >> > going to understand all this! And there was me thinking that >> >> spatial >> >> > awareness was meant to be a basic skill. >> >> > As it is, I'm determined to learn this. I've gone six or seven >> >> years >> >> > without any mobility training now because I just can't get my >> >> head >> >> > around it. Now I'm trying again, and I thought that if I can >> >> > understand how these games work, maybe it will improve my mental >> >> > mapping skills and thus my mobility training, and stop everyone >> >> > getting impatient with me and telling me what an idiot or slow >> >> learner >> >> > I am. >> >> > Cheers, >> >> > Damien. >> >> > >> >> > On 27/07/2020 04:08 pm, Luke Hewitt wrote: >> >> >> I've found myself, that practicing has actually improved my >> >> ability >> >> >> to navigate in games. >> >> >> >> >> >> When I started with shades of doom and gma tank commander, I >> was >> >> >> having trouble, and it wasn't until I thought out the physical >> >> >> spacial awareness test myself that I managed to get my head >> >> around >> >> >> the idea, since my own comprehension of space is actually >> pretty >> >> crappy. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What I do do though, both in games and rl, is to use >> >> landmarks as >> >> >> guides, sound sources, smells, and working out what direction I >> >> have >> >> >> to go from such and such is often a good way around. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A hero's call I can't speak about as I've yet to get into that >> >> game, >> >> >> but I know in shades of doom, using the sound sources of the >> >> >> corridors and many of the tools already provided like >> >> coordinates and >> >> >> the reminders of where I've gone before, helped considerably. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dark. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. 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