Friendly ping on Yoav's suggestion. Did y'all file a TAG review request? -mike
On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:47 AM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote: > Since we're talking about adding a full new class of MQs, that seems > worthy of a TAG discussion. > > On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 1:38:13 AM UTC+1 Will Cassella wrote: > >> Sorry for missing that! There's a section in the spec for 'video-*' MQ's >> <https://drafts.csswg.org/mediaqueries-5/#video-prefixed-features>, and >> while this is the first to be implemented in Chrome there are others >> detailed there (most notably video-color-gamut). The 'video-*' MQ >> concept has not been discussed with TAG, but it was discussed at great >> length between the media and CSS WGs. You can see the start of that >> discussion in the media WG here >> <https://github.com/w3c/media-capabilities/issues/135>, and its jump to the >> CSS WG here <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4471>. In both >> places we had representation from different user agents and domain experts. >> >> On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 12:51 AM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the update! >>> >>> Repeating my question from above, that probably got lost along the way: >>> Was the concept of `video-*` MQs discussed with the TAG? Are there other >>> `video-*` MQs that are already shipped? >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 9:33 PM Will Cassella <cas...@chromium.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There's been movement on the Github issue >>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6793#issuecomment-973647057> >>>> regarding >>>> the spec, and the consensus is that the way Safari has done things (having >>>> dynamic-range: >>>> standard always return true, and dynamic-range: high be evaluated >>>> against the capabilities of the display) is what we should be doing, and >>>> the wording of the spec should be adjusted as well. I've updated our >>>> implementation to reflect that. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 12:04 PM Chris Harrelson <chris...@chromium.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ok thanks. It looks like the CSSWG discussed the issue and there still >>>>> needs to be more discussion before a resolution is achieved, so we'll wait >>>>> for that. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:45 PM Will Cassella <cas...@chromium.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> I’ve filed an issue on the csswg-drafts repo >>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6793> asking for the >>>>>> wording to be adjusted in the spec. In the original discussion >>>>>> surrounding >>>>>> this media query, the intent was for this to be reflective of the display >>>>>> device and not an overall representation of the user agent's >>>>>> capabilities. >>>>>> I did some research into Safari's implementation >>>>>> <https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit/blob/e1adc392ff841dee89aab69af21e3c429e4d5c88/Source/WebCore/css/MediaQueryEvaluator.cpp#L453> >>>>>> of this query, and while they similarly implement dynamic-range: high >>>>>> with respect to the display device, their treatment of dynamic-range: >>>>>> standard isn't in line with the spec (it always returns true, even >>>>>> on HDR displays). After some discussion with +chcunningham, we think this >>>>>> may be the correct path forward for Chrome as well as sites are already >>>>>> using this query on Safari, and it makes sense from a backwards >>>>>> compatibility standpoint (how should dynamic-range: high react if an >>>>>> ultra-high enum is ever added?). I'm still waiting to get feedback >>>>>> on the Github issue I filed at the moment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Will >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 12:30 PM Chris Harrelson < >>>>>> chris...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, there were some discussions of the spec, and other questions, so >>>>>>> far in the thread. Will, could you summarize the current status? Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 12:04 PM David Baron <dba...@chromium.org> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 2:38 PM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 10:19:44 PM UTC+2 Fernando >>>>>>>>> Serboncini wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [coming from the other thread... :) ] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> +1 to what David said. It doesn't seem that returning dynamic-range: >>>>>>>>>> high right now would be useful. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The spec could use some clarification: >>>>>>>>>> - clarify if those criterias need to be supported on different >>>>>>>>>> conditions: CSS, images, canvas, ... >>>>>>>>>> - clarify if the criterias need to be supported for both >>>>>>>>>> with/without alpha (afaik there may be implementation differences >>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>> but I may be wrong here). >>>>>>>>>> - I wonder if the definitions of high contrast/peak brightness >>>>>>>>>> should match the industry definitions for HDR displays? I'm not an >>>>>>>>>> expert, >>>>>>>>>> but I know those exist. >>>>>>>>>> I think it's potentially okay to ignore those definitions, but >>>>>>>>>> I'd ask for a rationale here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think it's a great thing to summarize hdr into a single media >>>>>>>>>> query, but the risk here would be to release a semantic that >>>>>>>>>> guarantees >>>>>>>>>> very little, and therefore is not useful in the long run. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 10:04 AM David Baron <dba...@chromium.org> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This sounds like exactly the sort of case where an >>>>>>>>>>> implementation should report (dynamic-range: standard) and >>>>>>>>>>> (video-dynamic-range: >>>>>>>>>>> high). It would be great to see the spec clarified to make it >>>>>>>>>>> clearer what UA support is expected for each, though. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -David >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 7:03 PM Will Cassella < >>>>>>>>>>> cas...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Copying over from the other thread (trying to continue the >>>>>>>>>>>> discussion here): >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The spec <https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-5/#dynamic-range> >>>>>>>>>>>> requires >>>>>>>>>>>>> that "The combination of the User Agent and the output device >>>>>>>>>>>>> fulfill all >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the following criteria" when describing what it means to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> high >>>>>>>>>>>>> dynamic-range. Since Chromium doesn't support wide-gamut colors >>>>>>>>>>>>> in CSS, >>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML, or Canvas >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David - I'm likely missing something here, but I thought (based on >>>>>>>>> this thread >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/epSTNPYkLIs/m/o5l7pZk1AwAJ>) >>>>>>>>> that we do have wide-gamut support in CSS, HTML and Canvas. >>>>>>>>> Are you saying we don't support this due to lack of color level 4 >>>>>>>>> support? Or something else? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That intent makes it sound like we have wide-gamut support for >>>>>>>> canvas (though others would be able to speak more authoritatively >>>>>>>> about it) >>>>>>>> but I don't think we do in HTML or CSS. (I also should have included >>>>>>>> images in my list, though I think if we have support with canvas then >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> probably do for images as well.).) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also didn't interpret the spec as saying anything about gamut >>>>>>>>> (but rather about color depth >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-5/#color>), although it may >>>>>>>>> be possible that wide gamuts and high color depth correlate 1:1. Can >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> clarify if that's what you meant? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I should have been more precise about meeting the spec's >>>>>>>> requirements rather than just using the term "wide-gamut". You're >>>>>>>> correct >>>>>>>> that it's not 1:1, though I think that in practice an implementation is >>>>>>>> unlikely to meet the spec's requirements on color depth and contrast >>>>>>>> ratio >>>>>>>> without supporting colors beyond sRGB's gamut. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (I also suspect we may not meet the color depth requirement in the >>>>>>>> spec, perhaps not for canvas or images as well.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -David >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> , I think it's probably incorrect to report that (dynamic-range: >>>>>>>>>>>>> high) is true based only on the device, which is what it >>>>>>>>>>>>> looks to me like the current code >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/renderer/core/css/media_query_evaluator.cc;l=351-378;drc=4d3cb20c1aebba55e54112531222c7434d29f3b0> >>>>>>>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Admittedly, the spec could probably use some clarification as to >>>>>>>>>>>>> what it >>>>>>>>>>>>> means for the User Agent to fulfill the criteria for both the >>>>>>>>>>>>> dynamic-range and video-dynamic-range queries, but my >>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding of what the spec is trying to say is that Chrome >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't say that (dynamic-range: high) is true until it >>>>>>>>>>>>> supports wide-gamut colors in at least some and maybe all of >>>>>>>>>>>>> those contexts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think you're right that the spec needs some clarification, >>>>>>>>>>>> since we're trying to incrementally enable adoption of HDR on the >>>>>>>>>>>> web the >>>>>>>>>>>> intent isn't to signal that HDR is supported by all APIs. We >>>>>>>>>>>> do already support HDR in some scenarios, such as the <video> >>>>>>>>>>>> element, so >>>>>>>>>>>> having these queries exist to let developers detect display >>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities is >>>>>>>>>>>> already useful. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 11:27 PM Yoav Weiss < >>>>>>>>>>>> yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 7:01 AM Will Cassella < >>>>>>>>>>>>> cas...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the feedback! I've updated that section: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Debuggability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Styles with these media queries can be viewed and edited in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the devtools frontend, albeit without proper highlighting. I've >>>>>>>>>>>>>> created >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pull requests on the relevant libraries used in the devtools >>>>>>>>>>>>>> frontend to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> enable this. https://github.com/stylelint/stylelint/pull/5613 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/codemirror/CodeMirror/pull/6803 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 9:10:36 AM UTC-7 Mathias >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bynens wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 5:44 PM Will Cassella < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cas...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contact emailscas...@chromium.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chcunning...@chromium.org, videostack-...@chromium.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Explainer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adds MediaQueries for detecting HDR vs HDR displays >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-5/#dynamic-range >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-5/#video-dynamic-range >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Specification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/mediaqueries-5/#dynamic-range >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Summary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adds media queries to CSS which allow a page to detect the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current display device’s support for HDR. This feature adds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two new CSS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media queries: 'dynamic-range' and 'video-dynamic-range', both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of which may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be one of 'standard' or 'high'. Chrome will resolve these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> queries according >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the capabilities of the display device the browser window >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is currently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> positioned on, allowing pages to toggle CSS rules accordingly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or respond in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Javascript via 'window.matchMedia()'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blink componentBlink>CSS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3ECSS> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Motivation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As HDR-supported displays become more common, web >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers need ways to enable HDR content on their web pages >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compromising the experience for users of non-HDR displays, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mixed-HDR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi-display setups. CSS already provides the 'media query' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concept for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toggling rules based on display device characteristics, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this feature >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extends that set of queries to enable detecting HDR support on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display device. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Initial public proposal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG reviewNot Filed. This is an incremental change to CSS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Media Queries, already adopted by CSS WG. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree a TAG review is not needed for the `dynamic-range` MQ, >>>>>>>>>>>>> as it's shipped in Safari and adopted by the CSSWG. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The video variant however doesn't meet that criteria. Was the >>>>>>>>>>>>> concept of `video-*` MQs discussed with the TAG? Are there other >>>>>>>>>>>>> `video-*` >>>>>>>>>>>>> MQs that are already shipped? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG review statusNot applicable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Risks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gecko: Worth prototyping ( >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/584) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit: Shipped/Shipping ( >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://webkit.org/blog/10247/new-webkit-features-in-safari-13-1/) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partially implemented - `video-dynamic-range` not yet supported >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Web developers: Positive ( >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4471#issuecomment-548085935) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feature designed with the help of Netflix. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Debuggability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No specific DevTools support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please follow https://goo.gle/devtools-checklist and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elaborate on this a little bit. Per the guide, we need to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ensure DevTools >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports basic editing of this new media query. It looks like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this works >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of the box in Canary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://wpt.fyi/results/css/mediaqueries/dynamic-range.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flag nameCSSDynamicRangeMediaQueries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome?False >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracking bughttps://crbug.com/1224711 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Estimated milestones97 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5680926106320896 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.chromestatus.com/>. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 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