Given that you expect it to be very rare, that sounds like a good idea to
me - at least for a release or two. I should have suggested this because I
was reviewing our compat <https://bit.ly/blink-compat>principles
<https://bit.ly/blink-compat> trying to reason through this one, but
skipped right over Debuggability
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpSpNJ96U8trhNkfV0v9fk/edit#heading=h.2vhygov7rgj5>
 :-).

Can you also add a UseCounter at that point so we get a signal in beta of
how often it's triggered?


On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 5:12 PM Mustafa Emre Acer <mea...@chromium.org>
wrote:

> Thanks Rick and Chris. Will get back here if I become aware of any
> breakage.
>
> In the meantime, I'm thinking of adding a console message for affected
> subresources. It'll read something like:
> "The hostname for http://faß.de/script.js <http://fass.de/script.js> (
> faß.de <http://fass.de>) may point to a different IP address after
> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5105856067141632. Make sure you
> are using the correct host name."
> Let me know if this is useful or just noise.
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 1:19 PM Chris Harrelson <chris...@chromium.org>
> wrote:
>
>> LGTM3
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:05 PM Rick Byers <rby...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh and +Alex Russell <slightly...@chromium.org> mentioned in the API
>>> owners meeting that he's fine with this change, and he has already approved
>>> it in Chromestatus. So mine is actually LGTM2.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 4:03 PM Rick Byers <rby...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Mustafa, that makes sense. I'm struggling a bit to evaluate the
>>>> compat risk. Changing URL parsing at all feels risky, but your data
>>>> indicates this should be a very rare scenario, and the fact that we're just
>>>> matching changes Firefox and Safari made years ago means it's even less
>>>> risky. There's still Android WebView and chromium-only enterprise scenarios
>>>> to consider. But I don't want to ask that you go through a whole other
>>>> round of adding metrics and waiting for stable just to address what is
>>>> effectively an interop bug (with a non-trivial impact on our WPT pass
>>>> rates), especially given those metrics are not going to be 100% conclusive
>>>> either (may identify only non-breaking cases). Finding only one origin with
>>>> any real usage, and seeing that that origin works fine either way also
>>>> further reduces the risk for me.
>>>>
>>>> I think I'm convinced that the risk here is similar to that of other
>>>> bug-fixes we make without any formal compat analysis. LGTM1 to ship. But if
>>>> you get reports of any breakage whatsoever prior to hitting stable, please
>>>> revert and come back to us for discussion of next steps.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>    Rick
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:28 PM Mustafa Emre Acer <mea...@chromium.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> > Rick's question regarding the impact of this change on parsed URLs?
>>>>> (vs. typed or pasted URL, that you already described)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, this affects parsed URLs as well. So, subresources with affected
>>>>> URLs may start pointing to different IP addresses after this change.
>>>>> Unfortunately I don't have metrics about how prevalent this is, but I'm
>>>>> happy to dig into it if we feel it's necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, a small correction about the remaining failures in the virtual
>>>>> test suite: There are two more failures containing ß (lines 124 and
>>>>> 127
>>>>> <https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/4072454/1/third_party/blink/web_tests/virtual/idna-2008/external/wpt/url/toascii.window-expected.txt>)
>>>>> I missed. These seem to be related to the handling of extended ASCII
>>>>> characters in hostnames: ß is an extended ASCII character, so the URL
>>>>> string is treated as 8 bit and parsed accordingly. I'll file a separate 
>>>>> bug
>>>>> for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:10 PM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for clarifying the test situation, Mustafa! :) Can you also
>>>>>> answer Rick's question regarding the impact of this change on parsed 
>>>>>> URLs?
>>>>>> (vs. typed or pasted URL, that you already described)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:40 AM Mustafa Emre Acer <
>>>>>> mea...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Philip,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pretty sure the remaining failures with URLs with "ß" are due to
>>>>>>> crbug.com/724018. In fact a quick hack reduced the failures down to
>>>>>>> 28:
>>>>>>> https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/4072454
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While related to IDNA, it's a different issue and isn't affected by
>>>>>>> this change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 3:07 AM Philip Jägenstedt <
>>>>>>> foo...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I see, so if we compare the expectations of the default setup
>>>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/web_tests/external/wpt/url/toascii.window-expected.txt>
>>>>>>>> to virtual test suite
>>>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/web_tests/virtual/idna-2008/external/wpt/url/toascii.window-expected.txt>,
>>>>>>>> we see the improvement from 154 failures to 73. Yay!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are those remaining failures for reasons unrelated to IDNA
>>>>>>>> processing? There are still tests with "ß" in the name that fail, but 
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>> not sure if it's expected or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:39 PM Mustafa Emre Acer <
>>>>>>>> mea...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are actually tests, but as a virtual test suite since the
>>>>>>>>> implementation is currently behind a flag:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/web_tests/virtual/idna-2008/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chrome Status form asked for a link to wpt.fyi and I couldn't
>>>>>>>>> figure out how to link to a virtual test suite so I said no. Updated 
>>>>>>>>> the CS
>>>>>>>>> entry.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 9:00 AM Philip Jägenstedt <
>>>>>>>>> foo...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Mustafa,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for much for working on this. The initial email says this
>>>>>>>>>> isn't tested by WPT, but I think this is the change that will make 
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> test (part of Interop 2022) pass:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://wpt.fyi/results/url/toascii.window.html?label=experimental&label=master&product=chrome&product=firefox&product=safari&aligned&view=interop&q=label%3Ainterop-2022-webcompat
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Philip
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 4:48 PM Rick Byers <rby...@chromium.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for investing in this alignment! Having a URL that goes
>>>>>>>>>>> one place in Chrome and somewhere different in Safari/Firefox seems 
>>>>>>>>>>> like a
>>>>>>>>>>> very bad thing in principle to me :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your metrics and comments are around user-typed/pasted URLs.
>>>>>>>>>>> Does this change somehow impact only that, not URLs parsed from 
>>>>>>>>>>> HTML and
>>>>>>>>>>> CSS? If so then I can understand why there's no WPTs for this. But 
>>>>>>>>>>> if not
>>>>>>>>>>> then we'd definitely need confidence in the WPT tests and probably 
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> more compat analysis.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 8:35 AM 'Yifan Luo' via blink-dev <
>>>>>>>>>>> blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 6:37:57 AM UTC+1
>>>>>>>>>>>> yoav...@chromium.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for working on alignment here!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 7:30 AM 'Harald Alvestrand' via
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blink-dev <blin...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This IDNA 2008 author applauds your decision.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 10:16 PM Mustafa Emre Acer <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mea...@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contact emailsmea...@chromium.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Specificationhttps://unicode.org/reports/tr46
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Summary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enable IDNA 2008 in Non-Transitional Mode for URL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processing, aligning Chrome's behavior with Firefox and Safari. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chrome
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently uses IDNA 2008 in Transitional Mode in URL 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processing. The main
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference between Transitional and Non-Transitional Mode is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the handling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of four characters known as deviation characters: ß (LATIN 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SMALL LETTER
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SHARP S), ς (GREEK SMALL LETTER FINAL SIGMA), ZWJ (Zero width 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> joiner) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ZWNJ (Zero width non-joiner). In Transitional mode, deviation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are handled the same as IDNA2003: ß is mapped to ss, ς is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mapped to σ, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ZWJ and ZWNJ are deleted. In Non-Transitional mode, domains 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> containing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these characters are allowed in domain names without mapping, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolve to different IP addresses. For example, typing "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faß.de <http://fass.de>" in Chrome and Firefox opens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different sites today. Enabling Non-Transitional IDNA in Chrome 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deviation characters in domain names. Firefox and Safari 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already made this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change in 2016 and continue to use Non-Transitional URL 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blink componentUI>Security>UrlFormatting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:UI%3ESecurity%3EUrlFormatting>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Search tagsidna
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:idna>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG reviewThis feature addresses conformance to an existing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spec and other browsers already do it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TAG review statusNot applicable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Risks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Gecko*: Shipped/Shipping (
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1218179)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/208902/webkit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Other signals*:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This change introduces a potential security issue where a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> domain pointing to one IP may start pointing to another IP. As 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an example,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDNA2003 and Transitional IDNA-2008 maps faß.de
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://fass.de> to fass.de (ß is a deviation character).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Transitional IDNA2008 maps it to xn--fa-hia.de which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the punycode representation of faß.de <http://fass.de>.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Typing "faß.de <http://fass.de>" in Chrome and Firefox
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently opens different sites. Main mitigations discussed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were domain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bundling / blocking where registrars bundle domain names (e.g. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> registering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faß.de <http://fass.de> along with fass.de) or block the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternative domain name (e.g. disallow faß.de
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://fass.de> if fass.de is registered). According to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data from Chrome 106 and 107: - Less than 0.001% of user-typed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or pasted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> main frame navigations had a deviation character in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hostname. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excludes link clicks and renderer initiated navigations, so the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> percentage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of affected domains among all navigations is even lower. - Only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hostname had a deviation character and had more than 50 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impressions over a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 28 day period (fußball.de <http://fussball.de>). Both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fußball.de <http://fussball.de> and fussball.de have the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same owner so this change doesn't affect them. Thus, typing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> domain names
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with deviation characters is very rare. Domain bundling / 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blocking aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blockers as this change won't have a significant impact on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> navigations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, Firefox and Safari have been using Non-Transitional 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDNA 2008
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since 2016 without issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebView application risks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APIs, such that it has potentially high risk for Android 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebView-based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Debuggability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Windows, Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There seems to be some tests written by apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/4794. However,
>>>>>>>>>>>> same question here: Why not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DevTrial instructions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=694157#c70
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flag nameuse-idna2008-non-transitional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome?False
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracking bug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=694157
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Launch bughttps://launch.corp.google.com/launch/4224656
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Estimated milestones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DevTrial on desktop 110
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DevTrial on Android 110
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anticipated spec changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compat or interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to known
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github issues in the project for the feature specification) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution may introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changing to naming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or structure of the API in a non-backward-compatible way).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5105856067141632
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "blink-dev" group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAHafXh3rh2Hh35Pv1wNg8vBzUMy13NY%2Bh1y8HmHQrH2aD1i_Lg%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAHafXh3rh2Hh35Pv1wNg8vBzUMy13NY%2Bh1y8HmHQrH2aD1i_Lg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAOqqYVFsCyiMPA4eVWZy-a%2Bv6XCgcYkCDzhq7XVSP4O_rQFFyA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAFUtAY8_-3_YWsRzmCk4mLQgTU6eaUHQ09%3Dku4dD4_gbks1VNQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAARdPYfmsGWwqFiRr2OKiVh2aq2AC7yoagUHJrPrdiVv8vJ7-Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
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