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[email protected] Today's topics: * Caste System is here to stay! - 2 messages, 2 authors http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/75cb55b2f671aa40?hl=en ============================================================================== TOPIC: Caste System is here to stay! http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/75cb55b2f671aa40?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 2 == Date: Thurs, May 24 2007 7:50 pm From: "Ram Ji Bharat" http://true-efforts.blogspot.com/ *Caste System is here to stay! * Election in Uttar Pradesh started and concluded but discussion on the relationship of politics and castes is not stopped yet as ever. Caste system is as old as Indian civilization and people failed to understand it properly till date. Caste is not only a system it is a mentality, it is a well developed institution in which every Indian is bound to graduate. There are two types are voices I hear in present Indian society. Modern means of development, international exposure, fast means of communications, urban development and industrial growth, railways and rising new lower middle class made the caste system weak in first and most prevalent observation. One group of people strongly believes that caste system is inhuman and against the norms of civilized society. This group is happy that caste system is weakened by development and education. Let us call this system the optimists. Another section believes, justifies and tries to convince that caste system is scientific. They give numerous examples, tell stories and live in the world of "unreal reality". Let us call this group the pessimists. BUT interesting point is that both sections believe that caste section is weakened and it is becoming more and more weak everyday. I differ and I strongly feel that it is not the case. In fact the realty is exactly reverse of what we perceive. To comprehend my statement let us understand the caste system and then try to analyze process of its becoming weak and strong. *Caste : Basic Philosophy* All across the nation people believe that caste is based on varna system and people are divided on the basis of their birth in four groups : Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and shudra. It is assumed that hierarchy is rigid and universal by definition. Roughly it is correct but many sociologists pointed and proved that this assumption not only incorrect but also it distorts the reality in such way that understanding caste and its behavior becomes really a complex problem. Indian society is divided in different small endogamous groups and members of these groups are ascribed caste and their position in the society is by virtue of their birth. Caste is unchangeable and a person of particular caste can not leave it and he can not be part of any other caste community by any means. Girls can get a higher caste by marrying to a groom of a higher caste but inter-caste marriages are generally not acceptable and bride and groom both have to face a lot of trouble in case of inter-caste marriage. There is concept of pollution in which touch of one human being defiles purity of another person. There is absolutely no difference among members of different castes and there is no way somebody can differentiate them biologically or otherwise. This means two friends may eat drink and enjoy together till one friend tells another one explicitly that his is untouchable. It clearly proves that caste is an attitudinal and behavioral phenomenon, not a scientific fact. Caste is not a general institution. It's not a general system either because there is no well accepted dogma to take care of it. I would say there is no institution to preach caste at all. It's the society which preaches and takes it forward from one generation to another. It's a cyclic phenomenon which defies all logic and keeps rotating again and again. *Caste can't be destroyed easily * It is clear from previous discussion that caste is not a normal system or institution. It is made part of Indian society by continuous process from old generation to new generation. It recruits its cadre by continuous preaching and training. Exceptional thing about caste system is that it doesn't recruit a man but a child and imprints its impression in the very beginning of life of a man. Now caste system is not a temple, it's not a well defined place, event and human behavior. It's just vague and undefined. Its everywhere...... it's in me, you and in the whole Indian society. If we want to destroy the caste system, it seems we have to destroy the whole society. We have to destroy the basic learning system which starts from home. We have to destroy the previous generation because previous generation is teacher of caste system. Modern means of development forced the so called upper caste people to live and mingle with so called lower caste people but it also brought the literate advocates of casteism. I met a lady who asked my caste.She said that she didn't believe in caste system but she just wanted to know if I was schedule caste. I simple told her that if caste doesn't exist how somebody could be schedule caste. People are advocating reservation to remove casteism but giving reservation on the basis of castes. Parties are passing resolutions to destroy the caste but forming caste based alliances to win elections. If modern means of development weakened the caste system in few areas it made is stronger in most of the areas. Now caste based associations and political parties are coming in existence. Modern means of communications made it is easy to form nation wide groups based on caste. People are changing titles in their names but not changing their attitude. They are marrying in same caste and believe that their caste is superior to others. Where the caste system is suffering due to development and education? Initially caste system was localized and now its global phenomena, Its now more powerful, more accepted and more attitudinal. Does it really possible to destroy the caste system? My opinion is affirmative. How is the big question which I will not prefer to explore in this article? *Conclusion * Caste system is an evil and it should have been removed in 20th century only. Indian leaders took wrong approach to solve the problem. They wasted their time and energy in passing resolutions, changing titles in their name and advocating for inter-caste marriages. They forgot to understand that when they ask for inter-caste marriages they actually verify the existence of caste system as a well accepted system. Optimists are more theoretical than practical and their efforts are as worthless as this article. Caste System is a more powerful than it was ever and strength of it is growing due to modern means and literacy. If we really want to solve the problem, we need to think about it like a great thinker, social worker and politician. We have to invent new means; we have to develop new long term vision. -- RAM JEE TRIPATHI -- truly yours, ram B. Tech, Computer Sc. & Engg.; IITK. Mobile No.: 91-9900165574 "It may not always be easy, convenient, or politically correct to stand for truth and right, but it is the right thing to do. Always." -- M. Russell Ballard Spirit of Nationalism http://bharatudaymission.org == 2 of 2 == Date: Mon, May 28 2007 7:11 am From: "Abhijit K" Well written, but so pessimistic one. The title is misleading, I find. As the conclusion is contradictory to the title. Read ahead please. On 5/24/07, Ram Ji Bharat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > http://true-efforts.blogspot.com/ > > *Caste System is here to stay! > * > > Election in Uttar Pradesh started and concluded but discussion on the > relationship of politics and castes is not stopped yet as ever. Caste system is as old as Indian civilization and people failed > to understand it properly till date. Caste is not That is debatable. Caste system, by definition, is a social hierarchy (read manusmriti) manifested in every other form (historically) -- politically, economically, etc. only a system it is a mentality, it is a well developed institution in which > every Indian is bound to graduate. There are two "bound" is a very pessimistic word. I believe that I did not grow up to believe in this institution. And Unlike me there are many in the Mission who have grown up to reject the institution all together. types are voices I hear in present Indian society. Modern means of > development, international exposure, fast means of communications, urban > development and industrial growth, railways and rising new lower middle > class made the caste system weak in first and most prevalent observation. > One group of people strongly believes that caste system is > inhuman and against the norms of civilized society. This group is happy that > caste system is weakened by development and education. Let us call this > system the optimists. Another section believes, justifies and tries to > convince that caste system is scientific. They give numerous examples, tell > stories and live in the world of "unreal reality". Let us call this group > the pessimists. > BUT interesting point is that both sections believe that caste section is > weakened and it is becoming more and more weak everyday. I differ and I > strongly feel that it is not the case. In fact the realty is exactly reverse > of what we perceive. To comprehend my statement let us understand the caste > system and then try to analyze process of its becoming weak and strong. You are being more pessimistic than the pessimists that you have yourself described. *Caste : Basic Philosophy* > > > All across the nation people believe that caste is based on varna system > and people are divided on the basis of their birth in four groups : Brahmin, > Kshatriya, Vaishya and shudra. It is assumed that hierarchy is rigid and > universal by definition. Roughly it is correct but many sociologists pointed > and proved that this assumption not only incorrect but also it distorts the > reality in such way that understanding caste and its behavior becomes really > a complex problem. One really does not need a sociologist to understand that. When we believes in True equality, that is not needed. Nevertheless, to prove it to the "pessimists" that you described and the hypocrite orthodoxy, that is needed. Indian society is divided in different small endogamous groups and members > of these groups are ascribed caste and their position in the society is by > virtue of their birth. Caste is unchangeable and a person of particular > caste can not leave it and he can not be part of any other caste community > by any means. Girls can get a higher caste by marrying to a groom of a > higher caste but inter-caste marriages are generally not acceptable and > bride and groom both have to face a lot of trouble in case of inter-caste > marriage. There is concept of pollution in which touch of one human being > defiles purity of another person. > > There is absolutely no difference among members of different castes and > there is no way somebody can differentiate them biologically or otherwise. > This means two friends may eat drink and enjoy together till one friend > tells another one explicitly that his is untouchable. It clearly proves that > caste is an attitudinal and behavioral phenomenon, not a scientific fact. The "attitudinal" phonomenon is right. But the attitude is not "natural", it is something that the society teaches. Now that does not make it right, as it is fundamentally opposed to the concept of Equality. Caste is not a general institution. It's not a general system either because > there is no well accepted dogma to take care of it. I would say there is no > institution to preach caste at all. It's the society which preaches and > takes it forward from one generation to another. It's a cyclic phenomenon > which defies all logic and keeps rotating again and again. The society is the institution. The false intermixing of this socio-political arrangment to maintain the hegemony of a few, with religion has created an institution which sustains itself. People with same interests coming together and doing propaganda is an institution. The orthodoxy in the country is the Institution. The people who are misleading the youth of this country (read: YFE) by not telling them the truth that caste is the reason behind inequalities, are part of this institution. They understand that the system serves their purpose best, so they try to exploit it to their best. Calling it a "cyclic" phenomenon is I believe, similar to saying that it will keep happening. Why does it not exist in European or American countries then? *Caste can't be destroyed easily > * > It is clear from previous discussion that caste is not a normal system or > institution. It is made part of Indian society by That is right, it is not a "normal" system. It is heinous system. continuous process from old generation to new generation. It recruits its > cadre by continuous preaching and training. Exceptional thing about caste > system is that it doesn't recruit a man but a child and imprints its > impression in the very beginning of life of a man. Now caste system is not a > temple, it's not a well defined place, event and human behavior. It's just > vague and undefined. Its everywhere...... it's in me, you and in the whole > Indian society. If we want to destroy the caste system, it seems we have to > destroy the whole society. We have to destroy the basic learning system > which starts I disagree. It is not within me. I reject the concept of caste. and I repeat, there are many sisters and brothers in BM who reject it. That is one of the fundamental tenets of our ideology. from home. We have to destroy the previous generation because previous > generation is teacher of caste system. Right. Now that sounds in sync with our ideology. We are aiming to destroy the notion from our hearts, so that the next generations that we'll give birth to will never have it in their minds. In the policy of BM on casteism (attached), we call upon all the people to Give up their caste (to start with) and all things that come associated with caste. This is the beginning of transformation. Giving up casteist titles is one of the small things, the real challenge is to mentally disassociate first from the notion of caste itself. That can happen only when one studies and understands the real nature of the system, how it has only disintegrated and destroyed the social fabric of our country and how it stands for evil. Then no person believing in equality will believe in Caste. We need to educate people on the evil of the caste system before that. My parents were happy to hear that (may be that is not the common reaction). I did proudly tell my relatives that I don't believe in anything related to the caste that has been thrust upon me. I am willing to take any (so called) pain and troubles that the society might give me for going against its evil notions. The real change will start when a generation of people will be born who have not been given the caste by their parents. The pessimist will say that even then people will consider the newborn to be having a caste, but that is only pessimism, why waste time in debating on that? Modern means of development forced the so called upper caste people to live > and mingle with so called lower caste people but it also brought the > literate advocates of casteism. I met a lady who asked my caste.She said > that she didn't believe in caste system but she just wanted to know if I was > schedule caste. I simple told her that if caste doesn't exist how somebody > could be schedule caste. If there were 10 steps to be taken for destroying caste, then the lady (hoping that she is being honest) has taken may be 5-6 steps. The system (as a system) has definitely got weaker. It is our job to destroy it completely. It is our job to educate people like this lady that they need to take the further steps to eradicate this evil. People are advocating reservation to remove casteism but giving reservation > on the basis of castes. Parties are Very true. passing resolutions to destroy the caste but forming caste based alliances > to win elections. If modern means of Very true. That is how, BM stands different. We stand for destroying the notion of caste and anything related to caste, ** HENCE ** caste based reservations also. That is where we stand different from YFE like people also. People won't give up their superficial so-called-upper-caste status but demand for abolishing caste-based reservations. That is hypocrisy. If one does not believe in caste, she must give up everything related to caste. development weakened the caste system in few areas it made is stronger in > most of the areas. Now caste based associations and political parties are > coming in existence. Modern means of communications made it is easy to form That is what we must fight against. No other political organization stood against the caste system and proposed a rational approach as BM does. Hence they came into existence. People need to be made aware, given strength to stand against it. That is what BM will do. nation wide groups based on caste. People are changing titles in their names > but not changing their attitude. They are Again I disagree. This is because no organization ever tried to destroy the notion of caste. We are doing that. marrying in same caste and believe that their caste is superior to others. > Where the caste system is suffering due to Same argument again. development and education? Initially caste system was localized and now its > global phenomena, Its now more powerful, more accepted and more attitudinal. Completely disagreed. The caste system is weaker now. The so-called-lower-castes have realised the evil of the caste system (unfortunately this does not seem to be the story with the so-called-upper-castes) and used the political weapon of universal franchise (thanks to the visionary freedom fighters and constitution writers, including Nehru and Ambedkar ... remember the "Sangha" had opposed universal franchise then ) to gain some of their due equality rights. Does it really possible to destroy the caste system? My opinion is > affirmative. How is the big question which I will not prefer to explore in > this article? If your opinion is affirmative, then may be you could have given a different title to your writeup. The task is definitely gigantic, but we have made a beginning. *Conclusion > * > Caste system is an evil and it should have been removed in 20th century > only. Indian leaders took wrong approach to True. solve the problem. They wasted their time and energy in passing resolutions, > changing titles in their name and Few changed their names. Most of the people still have casteist names. Tell me: Is it not true that a person without a casteist surname has moved closed towards a casteless society compared to a person with a casteist surname? It may be a small change, but its a change. advocating for inter-caste marriages. They forgot to understand that when > they ask for inter-caste marriages they BM advocates caste-free marriages. Caste should not be a concern at all, and MORE IMP: the result of the marriage should not be a caste. The next generations should not get a caste. We must not give our offsprings any surname, caste (by words and in legal documents). That will be the real begining of a casteless society, but we must do our part. actually verify the existence of caste system as a well accepted system. > Optimists are more theoretical than practical and their efforts are as > worthless as this article. Don't write worthless articles please :D (just kidding). Calling optimists just theorotical is saying that you are not an optimist. BM is optimist and it has got a practical approach also. How much we achieve will only depend on how much we strive. Today our strenght is small, but its only a matter of time (thats how optimists think ) when it happens. Even if all BM patriots start believing that together they can make the change, they'll make the change. When one person changes, she changes the whole system around her. The family, the relatives, social circle -- all are influenced. I am sure I've made hundreds of people atleast think about it, since I dropped my surname (4 years back) and started writing my Mother's name instead. It is only a matter of time before these people realise the vision of the Mission. Caste System is a more powerful than it was ever and strength of it is > growing due to modern means and literacy. If we It is the politicians who are playing their dirty games to sustain the caste system. It is our duty to stop the country from disintegrating with this evil propaganda. really want to solve the problem, we need to think about it like a great > thinker, social worker and politician. We have to invent new means; we have > to develop new long term vision. Truth and Service -- that is what the Mission stands for. I believe, we already have a solution -- we just need to make ourselves capable and strong enough to to take the mission ahead. The policy document has some means suggested, we can always add more means to that. The National Executive and national council always welcomes ideas and suggestions. The system will go for sure. Equality is Truth and Truth will always prevail. -- RAM JEE TRIPATHI I wish you wrote "Ramji Bharat" as you "sometimes" write. Abhijit -- Abhijit Meenakshi About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt www.bharatudaymission.org ============================================================================== You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BM_discussion" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] or visit http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change the way you get mail from this group, visit: http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/subscribe?hl=en To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ============================================================================== Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en
