[uucdigest] Monday, February 14 2000 Volume 03 : Number 262 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Visit http://www.bubbaclub.com | www.bimmers.com - "serving enthusiasts on the 'net" | Visit http://www.bimmer.org - ultimate BMW bulletin boards! | Subscribe to the Zionsville Autosport Parts Digest: | http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/majordomo.htm ����������������������������������������� In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] <E28 M5> my weekend - long Re: [uuc] <E28 M5> my weekend - long Re: [uuc] Engine Fire !!! [uuc] thinking of selling [uuc] H*lp Needed! [uuc] <WOB/Tech> Active Noise Suppression. Re: [uuc] Engine Fire !!! Re: [uuc] RE: Ferrari noises in a BMW [uuc] test Re: [uuc] <OT> Tech Question - Rod Ratio ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:16:55 -0500 (EST) From: Ned Coonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] <E28 M5> my weekend - long I had a busy weekend. Productive too. But don't ask my wife. Please. Don't. This means you PHead. And Chester. Fugetaboutit Keith. Sunday morning I flew from Chicago to San Diego where I was met by my pal, the legendary Jim Powell. Among his many claims to fame (really), he has an E36 M3 with the torque curve that can turn you green. Whew. From the airport we rocket up I-5 to Northeast LA to look at this bad boy: http://hometown.aol.com//inlacal/M5.html It turned out to be just about as nice as it looks on the website. Drove nice. Strong. Good engine song. Nice, clean, orginal paint. Very clean, original interior. So I bought it. I check my watch as we're closing up the deal. Two and a half hours to get to Jim's house, drop off the car, and get back to the airport for my ride back to Chicago. Piece-o-cake. Fourty-five minutes later, we're 5 miles into our 100+ mile return trip on I-5 stuck in traffic. Next flight to Chicago is this morning. Sh*t. We crawl along some more. Finally we pass Santa Ana and the trafic starts to clear. We get down to business. If you haven't driven SoCal expressways, you won't understand and you'll be tempted to criticize. Either 1. try the SoCal expressways for yourself, or 2. just fight the urge to flame. People fly on these roads when traffic permits. Early afternoon yesterday, traffic permitted. There are Ford Ranger p/u's doing 90+. Other, more capable cars were going somewhat faster. Oh yes, the M5 is quite capable. Other E28 M5 owners can chime in here. What an exhilerating drive! Now that I'm back in Chicago winterland, I'm so glad I got a 100+ fun miles on the car before I dropped it off to await shipment to Chicago. Jim knew that despite our urgent driving, we were not going to make it to his house and then on to the airport. He grabbed an exit near his home, parked the car at a motel parking lot, and continued on to make my flight. Jim and his wife later backtracked to the motel and shuttled the car to his home. That's Bubba. Period. So, what needs to be fixed? Some small things but mostly, the suspension needs a little help. The Self Leveling system appers to be working but the car is pretty "floaty" at speed on irregular pavement. Feels like the dampers are shot. I know that one choice is to replace the self-leveling system with the Bilstien solution. I don't plan to track the car. It's just for spirited street driving. So...I'm trolling for options. In any case - what a car! My friend Brian, who drives a Dinan-tweaked 328 convertible said "If the E30 M3 makes you feel German, an E28 M5 will make you speak German." Brian ist ganz richtig. ...ned. 98 M3 88 M5 big grin ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:26:21 EST From: "Steven Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] <E28 M5> my weekend - long Great story!! That's what it's all about. You said it man, that's Bubba. Steve '87 325iS >From: Ned Coonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: [uuc] <E28 M5> my weekend - long >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:16:55 -0500 (EST) > >I had a busy weekend. Productive too. But don't ask my wife. Please. Don't. >This means you PHead. And Chester. Fugetaboutit Keith. > >Sunday morning I flew from Chicago to San Diego where I was met by my pal, >the legendary Jim Powell. Among his many claims to fame (really), he has an >E36 M3 with the torque curve that can turn you green. Whew. From the >airport >we rocket up I-5 to Northeast LA to look at this bad boy: >http://hometown.aol.com//inlacal/M5.html > >It turned out to be just about as nice as it looks on the website. Drove >nice. Strong. Good engine song. Nice, clean, orginal paint. Very clean, >original interior. > >So I bought it. I check my watch as we're closing up the deal. Two and a >half hours to get to Jim's house, drop off the car, and get back to the >airport for my ride back to Chicago. Piece-o-cake. > >Fourty-five minutes later, we're 5 miles into our 100+ mile return trip on >I-5 stuck in traffic. Next flight to Chicago is this morning. Sh*t. We >crawl >along some more. Finally we pass Santa Ana and the trafic starts to clear. >We get down to business. If you haven't driven SoCal expressways, you won't >understand and you'll be tempted to criticize. Either 1. try the SoCal >expressways for yourself, or 2. just fight the urge to flame. People fly on >these roads when traffic permits. Early afternoon yesterday, traffic >permitted. There are Ford Ranger p/u's doing 90+. Other, more capable cars >were going somewhat faster. Oh yes, the M5 is quite capable. > >Other E28 M5 owners can chime in here. What an exhilerating drive! Now that >I'm back in Chicago winterland, I'm so glad I got a 100+ fun miles on the >car before I dropped it off to await shipment to Chicago. > >Jim knew that despite our urgent driving, we were not going to make it to >his house and then on to the airport. He grabbed an exit near his home, >parked the car at a motel parking lot, and continued on to make my flight. >Jim and his wife later backtracked to the motel and shuttled the car to his >home. That's Bubba. Period. > >So, what needs to be fixed? Some small things but mostly, the suspension >needs a little help. The Self Leveling system appers to be working but the >car is pretty "floaty" at speed on irregular pavement. Feels like the >dampers are shot. I know that one choice is to replace the self-leveling >system with the Bilstien solution. I don't plan to track the car. It's just >for spirited street driving. So...I'm trolling for options. > >In any case - what a car! My friend Brian, who drives a Dinan-tweaked 328 >convertible said "If the E30 M3 makes you feel German, an E28 M5 will make >you speak German." Brian ist ganz richtig. > >...ned. >98 M3 >88 M5 >big grin > >______________________________________________ >FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com >Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:28:20 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Engine Fire !!! I don't know your circumstances but I doubt if the antifreeze would burn when spilled onto an exhaust. The coolant will cool the manifold, the remainder won't have enough ethylene glycol left to do anything. Gasoline evaporates and creates an explosive cloud but it cannot get hot enough to ignite on its own. Oil on the other hand cakes on to hot surfaces and retains enough heat to eventually ignite. That is the mechanism for so many Fiero engine fires. Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Does anyone know if coolant (containing ethylene glycol) > will burn at 1200 F? I'm helping a friend rebuild his 2nd > generation RX-7 and we had a bit of an engine fire. We > ruled out oil (and it defiantly wasn't gas). We had a lot > of coolant spillover on the exhaust manifold, which when > hot is about 1200 deg. Is it possible, once the water > evaporates off, that the ethylene glycol could burn??? > > BTW: Both First Alert chemical extinguishers we had FAILED > to propel any of the chemical. YIKES!!! I guess these things > can't be trusted!? > > David Foos > '95 ///M3 > BMW CCA # 172816 > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:40:57 EST From: "jason young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] thinking of selling I am thinking of selling my M3 and am curious as to where I would find the best middle ground between the most money vs. the best timely sell. Meaning, if I do sell it, 40k for it is nice but not if I have to wait 4 years to get that, as well as selling it the day I want to sell it would be wonderful, but not if I only get 15k for it. Dealers? Carmax? Internet and local private listings? FWIW, it is an automatic, 95, 2 door, artic silver, 58,8k miles, with (I think) all the options, I can elaborate if needed. Seems to be in perfect shape other than cracked fog lights and a scratch on driver fender (scratch, not dent) also, FWIW, I have a dealer subscription to NADA, have used Kelly Blue book from the internet as well as Edmunds, while obtaining different pricings from all 3 sources. I believe that NADA is used by dealers the most though. I have sold several vehicles before and typically sell it inbetween trade in and retail. Thanks Jason Garrett Young '95 ///m3/2 '92 se-r turbo, '92 se-r w/bad motor, '92 sr20de '87 maxima Reston VA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:14:52 PST From: "Manuel Paredes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] H*lp Needed! Hello All! A few weeks ago I got a speeding ticket on the freeway. I was zapped doing 91 on a 65. I was not doing 91 but did admit to the officer that I was speeding, but not at 91. I told him that I was probably going 81 and he insisted I was doing 91. I recieved a letter in the mail from the court on Friday stating that I had a mandatory court appearance and there was no bail amount listed on the letter. Should I be worried? Do I need to get a traffic court lawyer? I would appreciate any input. I live in Los Angeles,California and have a clean driving record. Thanks!! Manuel Paredes 95 325i sharked, x-ed, m3mflrd LA BMWCCA ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:29:19 -0500 From: "Neil Deshpande" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] <WOB/Tech> Active Noise Suppression. Did not go through on account of words in the message body so I thought I'd send it again. Neil *** Ben Keyes asks for some comments on active noise control. Here are some comments. 1. Active noise control exists. I read of Daimler Benz actually having a working prototype in 1995-96. What this car did was can*el out the 4-cyl noise and 'leave' behind sound that a 6-cyl or and 8-cyl might make. 2. As Ben points out, only the periodic and predictable noise can really be cancelled out effectively with current processing power. Hence helicopter blade noise canc*lling headphones, etc. 3. Another thing to keep in mind is that you do not want to cancel out too much noise since this is what tells you what is going on. You might miss a trunk blowing its horn to wake you up! 4. Wind noise and the like are very broadband kind of white noise and it is difficult to target them without affecting other things. 5. A large amount of energy would be required to eliminate the kinds of noise generated by moving body panels like the roof. Imagine having only speakers that having to compete with a whole metal roof shaking the air in the cabin up! This applies more to lower frequencies, which is exactly where engine noise 'modifications' are going to be have to be made. 6. When you deal with car interiors you are mostly dealing with standing waves as against in the open. This means placement of the head (and the ears as a result) becomes very important. When I take measurements in cabins, I keep to within 0.5". If you hand a canc*llation system and it only exaggerated the noise difference between the two positions you could keep your head in, that would be really irritating. This used to happen in my grad school shower stall - the sound of the shower varied throughout the room. When I was in high school, we conducted an interesting experiment: We put to large speakers on top of two buildings to generate a standing wave on the football field and asked everyone in school to stand where they thought they heard the sound the loudest. What resulted was a classic standing wave pattern! 7. There are a lot cheaper ways of getting a BMW to sound like a Ferrari. The first one that comes to mind is actually putting a Ferrari engine in a BMW! But seriously, there are many ways of improving sound quality that get rejected for cost that could be put in long before you had to resort to active 'modifications'. I'll leave some of those for another mail. Neil Deshpande 1988 325 iS 1989 325 iC *** Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:13:11 -0500 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] <WOB> active noise suppression Rob Levinson - UUC Motorwerks wrote: > <light bulb> > New UUC product: digital recording on a chip of classic Ferrari/Alfa/Lambo > engine sounds that responds to real engine rpm and plays through stereo > system. Oh man, just think of how many more tickets you'd get! > > BMW could call it the "QBM" option - Que Bella Machina! I have wondered when someone will put active noise suppression tech into cars. they have this for airplane headphones & I know that Lotus had automotive proof of concept stuff around a few years back. perhaps with the advent of cheap(er) flat-panel speakers, someone will package them in the headliner/a/b/c pillars. all you need then is a series of good mics & some processing power. it might be particularily good at eliminating consistent NVH from road & wind. likely that we just will spend more money on foam & the like... perhaps our NVH experts on the digest can comment - Neil, Jack, others ? Ben Keyes m coupe/m5 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:33:33 -0500 From: "Rob Levinson - UUC Motorwerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Engine Fire !!! Ethylene glycol definitely DOES burn! The heat of a very hot exhaust system can light it on fire. Also, please set your mail software so it does not send those banner ads at the bottom. Depending on what mail software you have there should be a "send as plain text" setting. Regards, - - Rob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Foos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Engine Fire !!! > Does anyone know if coolant (containing ethylene glycol) > will burn at 1200 F? I'm helping a friend rebuild his 2nd > generation RX-7 and we had a bit of an engine fire. We > ruled out oil (and it defiantly wasn't gas). We had a lot > of coolant spillover on the exhaust manifold, which when > hot is about 1200 deg. Is it possible, once the water > evaporates off, that the ethylene glycol could burn??? > David Foos > '95 ///M3 > BMW CCA # 172816 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:25:03 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] RE: Ferrari noises in a BMW Actually the only commercially successful applications of this that I know of are in buildings. Yes I said buildings. The modern office building has so many generators/motors/fans/pumps/flourescentlamps and other harmonic generating machines in them that many (at least in America) include anti-noise broadcasts through the PA systems to reduce the overall ambient noise we all have to put up with all day long... Now if I could only figure out a way to make my desk sound like a Ferrari... - -Damon 325i w/ sport suspension ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:48:02 -0800 From: Michael Reinhart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] test test ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:23:54 -0500 From: Patrick Burns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] <OT> Tech Question - Rod Ratio (rod:stroke ratio) Here's _a_ (there are others) function for piston position in terms of crankshaft rotation, with variables for stroke radius and connecting rod length, then the first (piston velocity) and second (acceleration) derivatives, in my scribbly handwriting. http://www.lifenet.com/patrick/derive.jpg Now here's a function for crankshaft torque based on bore radius, stroke radius, connecting rod length, and cylinder pressure. http://www.lifenet.com/patrick/torque.jpg I've yet to actually take the integral of it, because I don't know how. :) So I just use my TI-82 to perform a numerical integration for me. If anyone has a math package that can integrate that function symbolically, please do so and send me the result! I've also yet to come up with a function for cylinder pressure, because there's a LOT to consider, some of which is covered in this rambling post I made to another list. Pay very little attention to the formulae in this post, as I made a few mistakes, which I've since corrected, but only in the urls posted above: - --- So one day while I wasn't doing my math homework, I realized I almost knew how to figure this stuff out for real. And, for some strange reason, I tried to. With the classes I was taking when I came up with this, it's not like I was hurting for math problems or anything, so maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. Or maybe my brain was stimulated by the thought-provoking class discussions. Or maybe I'm just a misunderstood genius. (Hey, knock that off over there.) Probably, it was the really good coffee I've been drinking lately. Some day, maybe, I'll understand how to integrate a multivariable function, and I'll finish this by hand once and for all. Or maybe someone will plug my little formula into some big bucks math program which will do it for me. But for now, I'll punch the numbers into my handy dandy TI-82, and it'll do a sort of half-assed numerical integration and show me pretty graphs and stuff when I ask it to do a definite integral. Er. That's later. Now, we just need regular math. So first, I needed to figure out piston motion in terms of crank rotation. That's this one: To get piston position for theta: r = stroke radius c = connecting rod length b = bore radius theta = degrees of crankshaft rotation away from TDC y = piston's distance from TDC y = - r cos theta - SQRT(c^2 - (r sin theta)^2) + c + r And to get volume inside the cylinder: V = y(pi b^2) + volume above piston at TDC So now we can calculate total cylinder volume for theta, which we need to figure out nRT (as in, PV=nRT). Figure out a way to mount a pressure transducer in the combustion chamber of the engine under development. Drill a hole into the combustion chamber, use some super spiffy spark plug with one built in, whatever. Then track crankshaft position with a toothed wheel and pickup or some such thingy. Then run the engine with a known setup (stroke, bore, con rod length, fuel, temp) and track pressure in the cylinder for theta. You'll end up with a scatter plot that looks something like this, but includes pressure data from the intake and exhaust strokes too (from -360 to 360 instead of just -180 to 180 like in this diagram): http://www.lifenet.com/patrick/pv.jpg which would boil down to something like this: http://www.lifenet.com/patrick/pv2.jpg Run this test every 500 rpm or so from the bottom of the range of real power to just short of where you think stuff will come flying through the engine cases. Test a couple of different fuels while you're at it in case some burn faster than others. You might need that data later. So now you have scatter plots showing pressure at theta for a known stroke/bore/rod, but that doesn't do anything for you yet, because the piston motion, and therefore volume @ theta, isn't the same for a different rod length, which is what you're testing. Remember Pressure times Volume = number of moles times the gas law constant 'R' times Temperature in degrees Kelvin... PV = nRT. Good luck counting the number of moles of gas that are in the cylinder, or traclomg the temperature in terms of theta. Plus with all the reactions going on, there's no way I'm ever in this lifetime going to be able to figure out how to calculate nRT at every instant from first principles. But from the scatter plot, we have pressure as a function of theta. From the piston motion function we have volume as a function of theta. If you perform a gazillionth degree regression sum of the points of the plot and find the equation of that curve then divide by volume for every theta, you have nRT as a function of theta, which for a known rpm (time) through the various equations noted gives pressure as a function of theta for any connecting rod length running at that rpm, and since you tested every 500rpm, you also have a function for nRT based on RPM. There are a lot of factors I'm electing to neglect such as piston motion's effect on port flow (number of moles) and charge turbulence (burn rate), but this should be close enough to get an idea of what's going on in there. Okay, so now we have a function for pressure in terms of degrees of crankshaft rotation (theta). Because I forget how to put Greek symbols here, I'm using the following: d = theta pi = pi, not p times i Pressure = f(theta), so P = f(d), which is really a big crazy function, I'm just going to call it 'P' and put it in another function which really is just dying to be integrated symbolically, and you can't stop me! torque = r*SQRT((P*pi*b^2)^2+(P*pi*b^2)*((r sin d)/ SQRT(c^2-(r sin d)^2))^2)sin((90-d)+(cos^-1((r sin d)/c))) then find the definite integral of that function from 0 to 720 degrees (four stroke), and just like magic, we have work performed for one cycle. Now take that engine and hook it up to a DC dyno or just spin the damned thing over somehow (with the ignition off, no fuel in the fuel system, and the throttle wide open) through the range of rpm and measure the torque required just to overcome friction and pumping losses every few hundred rpm. Let's just call that friction, since that's what it is, really. Now here's the easy part: rpm(Torque - friction)/(constant for whatever units of measurement you're using... 5252 for English to find horsepower, or something else to get kilowatt hours) = power put out, or output (after taxes and stuff) Repeat for every 500rpm or so, do another regression sum to find the curve, do the definite integral between the minimum engine speed you think the engine will see on the track and redline, then do it again for different connecting rod lengths. The one with the most area under the curve is the fastest engine, in my little theoretical paper world, anyway. Of course, you could just put to graphs next to each other and eyeball them too, like everyone already does anyway. Hey, if the rod fits in the engine, it might even work. :) (no, I'm not holding my breath either) If you want to see my hand scribbled notes, go here for piston motion, which includes the first and second derivatives, which are piston speed and piston acceleration, respectively: http://www.lifenet.com/patrick/derive.jpg and here for the torque function in terms of theta and cylinder pressure, with a pretty little scribble showing my buddy Pythagoras, from whom I got all those sines and cosines: http://www.lifenet.com/patrick/torque.jpg Drop me a line and tell me I'm silly. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #262 ************************** _________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | Bonneville Motorwerks . http://www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com | Circle Tire Co. 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