[uucdigest] Saturday, February 19 2000 Volume 03 : Number 294 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Visit http://www.bubbaclub.com | www.bimmers.com - "serving enthusiasts on the 'net" | Visit http://www.bimmer.org - ultimate BMW bulletin boards! | Subscribe to the Zionsville Autosport Parts Digest: | http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/majordomo.htm ����������������������������������������� In this BMW UUC Digest: Re: [uuc] Gears Re: [uuc] Re: [uucdigest] Clicking noise under hard acceleration [uuc] Re: Turn-in technique (Matt vs the list) Re: [uuc] Gears Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique Re: [uuc] Re: Turn-in technique (Matt vs the list) Re: [uuc] Re: M Badge Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique [uuc] understeer vs. oversteer Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique [uuc] RE: wind noise Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:45:04 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Gears Personally, I never really cared for the heavier titanium knobs. Even though it might help shifting, it makes for an odd pendulum-like motion if say you hit the knob in neutral to the left to make sure it's in neutral. You do that with the standard shift knob and it simply goes left and then returns to the center. Do that with the heavier knob and *boing* *boing* *boing* *boing* *boing* *boing*.... What I do is slightly push diagonally up once and then on the second try, it slides right in. YMMV. HTH, Chester - --- Patrick Burns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Duane Collie wrote: > > > Classic E36 trans. Lot of them do it. Know what I found did the trick in > > mine? A short shift kit and one of UUC Motorwerkes TITANIUM knobs. The > > extra heavy mass of the Titanium knob has enuf of that engineering fulcrum > > stuff to overcome the balkiness and it slips right in....easy as pie. > > *rolls eyes* > > You're saying the inertia from the shifter knob is what's helping? > > What's the mass of your Ti knob (and how fast are you moving it?!), and why > wouldn't just pushing harder work? > > If the there's a shifting problem, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say > the shifter _knob_ isn't it. (you can all put down your Carroll Smith books > now, I read that part too, and your BMW doesn't brake that hard) > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:56:01 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: [uucdigest] Clicking noise under hard acceleration I brought my car in for service today and asked the mechanic a few questions. I guess it's really hard to explain the noise without the mechanic being right there at the day of the dyno event...oh well. Anyway, he attributes the noise to something banging on something. His main theory was the sway bar on my Active Autowerke exhaust. So lessee.....they jack up my car, installed hub adapters, slid the dynapacks on and let the car down. Now maybe the same phenomenon happened where when you raise the rear of the car, the camber is adversely affected and then when you lower the car, it sits just a little higher. If that were the case, then maybe the tight clearance between the sway bar and the exhaust was further amplified. There was some vibration that could have happened because the hub adapters weren't 100% totally centered on the hubs and maybe they were worn a little from a lot of use which could have shaken everything to the point that the exhaust hit the sway bar. Do I think the theory holds truth? It certainly does. The clicking noise didn't vary with engine speed. Believe me, the engine was turning 5k - 6k and you held a noise....*clack*.......*clack*.....*clack*..... If the noise varied with engine speed, the frequency of the noise would have been much higher. Also, some people said that it sounded like my fan hitting the housing or something. Doesn't the fan rpm also vary with the engine rpm? In that case, I think I could rule that out as well. The master mechanic said that sounds travels in strange ways. I believe him. Some have said that when one has a missing hockey puck, there's a whistling sound that sounds as if it's coming from the windows....go figure! I guess I'll have to wait until another dynapack is in town to test out this theory ;) FWIW, Chester - --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > does your m3 have any modifications? > does anyone know how much movement occurs to the motor from torque upon > hard acceleration? - theory- fan blade tapping shroud. does vanos make any > clicking noise under hard acceleration? > chester, did the dyno run indicate any type of detonation that you > could tell? > im betting not since mine makes clicking and i know it isnt detonation. > OK, everyone with m3's, in non icy area's, go out, roll down your > drivers' window and accelerate real hard (after engine warms up) and listen > for clicking. we can figure this out. > tommy- > on the rampage to stomp out clicking for m3 owners everywhere. > i just cant help myself. i get carried away with all this tag line stuff. > oh yeah- 95 AA turbo m3- real fast- 12.013 and 122 mph 1/4mi > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:00:59 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Turn-in technique (Matt vs the list) Hey with all this discussion about proper turn in, call me silly but I can see Matt club races a GTI and everyone else disagreeing with him drive M3's or some other RWD car. Could it be the GTI has different characteristics and therefore requires a different technique? Just a thought, if he's speaking of the M5 well then nevermind. I'll shuddup now. Carlos 91 M3 understeers & oversteers in the same corner, d'oh! :-) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:02:07 -0500 From: Patrick Burns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Gears I wrote: > Duane Collie wrote: > > did the trick in mine? A short shift kit and one of UUC Motorwerkes > > TITANIUM knobs. The extra heavy mass of the Titanium knob has enuf of > > that engineering fulcrum stuff to overcome the balkiness > What's the mass of your Ti knob (and how fast are you moving it?!), and why > wouldn't just pushing harder work? Not only that, but even if the shifter knob _did_ have enough mass so that the movement from one gear through neutral helped to engage the next gear, it's be just like some big oaf shoving the thing into gear instead of properly loading the synchro ring for a moment, but not actually engaging the gear, to allow the two gears time to match their speeds, _then_ engaging the gear. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:14:55 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Yip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique - --- James Sheridan-Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Perhaps this is best with an extra footnote: > > "Under acceleration does not necessarily mean foot to the floor." Well - with our underpowered POS racecars it does <g> ===== Matthew Yip [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/mgyip/ '87 GTi 16v - x2 '88 M5 '99 F350 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:21:04 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Yip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: Turn-in technique (Matt vs the list) Yes, I race a FWD car BUT dynamics are dynamics. I had an opportunity to drive an E36 M3 around Slummit Point - used the same techniques as with the GTi with quite positive results. As James pointed out - under acceleration doesn't necessarily mean "flat out". The E36 has enough balls to perform a nice pirouette if pushed in that manner. I use the throttle instead of the brakes to balance the car - this means a much smoother exit and the ability to put the power to the ground sooner. - --- Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey with all this discussion about proper turn in, call me silly > but I can see Matt club races a GTI and everyone else disagreeing > with him drive M3's or some other RWD car. Could it be the GTI has > different characteristics and therefore requires a different > technique? ===== Matthew Yip [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/mgyip/ '87 GTi 16v - x2 '88 M5 '99 F350 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:02:12 -0500 From: Ken W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: M Badge "Jonathan Reiser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I actually don't see anything wrong with someone putting an M in > front of their model badge. However, the other days I saw a > completely stock E36 318iS (single tailpipe) where the owner had > removed "318iS" and replaced it with a not just an ///M but the > entire ///M3.... hullo... here we have Mr. Posier Paulo from HMS Motorsport has an E36 318is and has on the back ///M42. I think it's great. - -Ken '91 M3 '86 GTI - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: ScopusFest ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:34:42 -0500 (EST) From: Moe Drippins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique Matthew Yip writes: > Turn 1 @ Slummit Point is a prime example for turn-in under > acceleration. Anything else results in massive understeer. I don't know that track (and hence, that turn), but you've lost me here. How would acceleration at turn in *help* in an understeer situation? - -- Just Moe '95 540 6 speed, BL/SS BMWCCA Peachtree Chapter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:44:26 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] understeer vs. oversteer a little while back some had asked the difference between over vs. understeer and there seemed to 30 different explanations so I clipped froma racing sight that seemed to state vary well the differences. "Understeer: If you continue to dial in more steering to get to the apex of the corner, but your car does not respond and just goes straight, this is understeer. Understeer is also called "push" or "plow." Oversteer: As you turn into the apex of a corner, if the rear end of your car begins to break loose and travel faster than the front end of your car as you round the corner, this is oversteer. In oval track racing circles, oversteer is also known as "stepping out" or a "loose condition."" Brian Jacobs 98 318ti 99 Z3 coupe Everglades CCA [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:56:37 -0500 From: "Rob Levinson - UUC Motorwerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique Applying the throttle transfers weight to the rear wheels, away from the front wheels. Lightening the load on the front end lets the front tires do their steering job better instead of just plowing. - - Rob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe Drippins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique > Matthew Yip writes: > > > Turn 1 @ Slummit Point is a prime example for turn-in under > > acceleration. Anything else results in massive understeer. > > I don't know that track (and hence, that turn), but you've lost me > here. How would acceleration at turn in *help* in an understeer > situation? > > -- > Just Moe > '95 540 6 speed, BL/SS > BMWCCA Peachtree Chapter > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:03:46 -0800 From: Jim Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique ?? This is the opposite of what I was always taught. I was taught to transfer more weight to the front on understeer to give them more bite. I think there's something like this in Skippy's book too but I can't find it at the moment. Jim Rob Levinson - UUC Motorwerks wrote: > > Applying the throttle transfers weight to the rear wheels, away from the > front wheels. Lightening the load on the front end lets the front tires do > their steering job better instead of just plowing. > > - Rob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Moe Drippins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 12:34 AM > Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique > > > Matthew Yip writes: > > > > > Turn 1 @ Slummit Point is a prime example for turn-in under > > > acceleration. Anything else results in massive understeer. > > > > I don't know that track (and hence, that turn), but you've lost me > > here. How would acceleration at turn in *help* in an understeer > > situation? > > > > -- > > Just Moe > > '95 540 6 speed, BL/SS > > BMWCCA Peachtree Chapter > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:11:10 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] RE: wind noise Amen Duane. I could not have said it better myself. Things always slide better when well-lubricated. - - - Duane Collie The Seven Sled ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:21:38 -0500 From: "Rob Levinson - UUC Motorwerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique Yes - but too much weight on the front equals plow. Gotta unload them a little. - - Rob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique > ?? This is the opposite of what I was always taught. I was taught to > transfer more weight to the front on understeer to give them more bite. > I think there's something like this in Skippy's book too but I can't > find it at the moment. > > Jim > > Rob Levinson - UUC Motorwerks wrote: > > Applying the throttle transfers weight to the rear wheels, away from the > > front wheels. Lightening the load on the front end lets the front tires do > > their steering job better instead of just plowing. > > > > - Rob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:49:39 -0600 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Cash) Subject: Re: [uuc] Turn-in technique At 12:21 AM 2/19/00 , you wrote: >Yes - but too much weight on the front equals plow. Gotta unload them a >little. This makes no sense to me. A car "plows" (continues in a straight line ignoring what direction the steering wheels are pointed) when the force pushing forward is greater than the current load capacity of those tires. The forward force is simple Physics 101 stuff; mass times velocity. The current load capacity (this terminology may be way off, I mean how much forward force the tires are capable of controlling before they break loose and get pushed) of the tires is a bit trickier; it includes the coefficients of friction for both the surface of the road and of the tire itself, the area of the tire in contact with the road, and the downwards force pushing the tire against the road. Accelerating will increase the velocity of the car. This increases the forward force and would move us towards plowing, not away. It also, as you noted, unloads the front tires (since we're talking BMWs I assume everyone is talking about cars the drive from the rear and steer in the front) thus reducing the downward force on the front tires. This again would be making conditions more favorable to plowing, not less. On the other hand... I have no degree in physcis, have never competed in a race, and will make no claims of being an expert about vehicles. Translation: I may be totally wrong. If I am wrong, could somebody please explain it to me? John Cash ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #294 ************************** _________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | Bonneville Motorwerks . http://www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com | Circle Tire Co. (used & classic BMW parts) e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Curry's Auto Service . http://www.currysauto.com | Eurosport . http://www.eurosport-hp.com | Koala MotorSport . http://www.koalamotorsport.com | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | The Ultimate Garage . http://www.ultimategarage.com | UUC Motorwerks . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com | Zionsville Autosport . http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com ����������������������������������������
