[uucdigest] Saturday, June 23 2001 Volume 03 : Number 3917 _________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.gis.nsw.gov.au/staff/rnott/bmw/bmw.html | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] 17" RD RGR Rims w/S-02's For Sale ["Jonathan Farber" <jcfarber@snet] Re: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? ["Joao T. da Costa" <jcosta@macb] [uuc] Floor Mats ["Kevin Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] Re: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? [Ed MacVaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] Re: [uuc] Floor Mats [Ed MacVaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] Re: [uuc] 97 M3 Vanos Question ["matthew c. mead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] [uuc] More Engine Swaps ["Kevin Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] [uuc] Re.: oil in throttle body [Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] [uuc] Re.: Considering a 6er [Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] Re: [uuc] Re.: oil in throttle body ["Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]] RE: [uuc] Re.: Considering a 6er ["Bill Matthews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] RE: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? ["Rodney Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:00:29 -0400 From: "Jonathan Farber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] 17" RD RGR Rims w/S-02's For Sale I would like to sell a set of 4 17" RD Sport RGR Rims. The rims are mounted with Bridgestone S-02's 235/45/ZR17's. The tires have only about 3,000 miles on them and are barely "scrubbed". Here's the catch: at least one, and possibly two, of the rims are bent, but fixable according to my local tire ship. I'm located in Westport, CT, and will accept any reasonable offer. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:45:51 -0300 From: "Joao T. da Costa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? >A few thoughts: > >[snip] > >3) Interior >BMWs of that era, if taken apart repeatedly or just left in the >sun, can start to look crappy inside as their plastics and leather age. And >once again, a generation of development goes a long way. Another thing to >consider is that the E24 was not entirely a BMW design (was it Guigaro that >had a part?)... According to BMW Mobile Tradition, Giugiaro was commissioned to do a proposal early in the development process, but the production model was based on Paul Bracq's proposal instead. Bracq was, of course, head of styling at BMW at the time. The bodies were made by Karmann of Osnabruck, and delivered to BMW's Dingolfing plant for final assembly. If you want to know more about Karmann build quality, ask the owner of any E9 (3.0 CS/CSi/CSL). Or better yet, don't ask. - --Joao T. da Costa Sao Paulo, Brazil '97 E36/5 318ti '89 E30 M3 >as such, much of the fit-and-finish integration of major >components is not up to BMW's normal standards (note the frameless door >glass, unique in any of the larger BMWs). The interior switchgear, gauges, >etc., are all converted E28 parts. This also explains the too-forward >shifter. > > >- Rob >http://www.robertlevinson.com >too many six cylinder BMWs: >'94 M5 3.8 Touring >ex-'88 M5 3.88 Turbo >ex-'85 535i Turbo >ex-'86 535i >ex-'85 535i ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:21:07 -0700 From: "Kevin Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Floor Mats Ryan wrote: >> A really, really minor design slip on the E46 >> the floor mat anchoring system = VELCRO. >> How cheap is that... velcro... It stopped functioning >> about a week after I picked up my car and the >> mat slides up towards the pedals every day and >> gets a gentle tug back into place... every day... >> Anyone have a fix for this? (I'm hopeful!) Then Evan wrote: > Waddya mean by "stopped functioning?" Did the > velcro come off the mats or the floor? I've got the > same car as you, with OE floor mats and they never > (and I really mean never) move unless I take them > out intentionally. Could yours have been improperly > installed? Some people put a lot more force on the mats when they get in and out of the car. I tried every kind of hold down made on my sister's Acura but the mat always slid forward. After I realized that I was not going to teach her to step out of the car rather than push off the mat, I got out the Makita cordless and screwed the mat down with a half dozen sheet metal screws and big washers (the mat has not moved since then). Make sure to check for things like brake lines before drilling the floor (I'm glad I did on the Acura). Kevin Kelly Who just bought some BMW OEM E36 mats that came with the Velcro hold downs. P.S. Am I the only one who wonders why BMW (and every other car maker I know of) has never made floor mats out the exact same material as the carpet so they match perfectly? It always seemed strange to me that they assume that the people who buy nice cars will be happy with mats that are "about the same color and texture" of the carpet. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:04:02 -0400 From: Ed MacVaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? Neil, et al, I owned an '85 635CSi and my bodyshop guy has the M6. We concur with everything Rob said with such thoughtful insight, except we have seen in print three times that BMW did the E24 design entirely in-house without direct Italian influence. A small nit, I know. As an aside, I loved the styling of the 6er, it had enough vestiges of the older CS models to have "character" and no subsequent model brings that forward in my opinion. The M6 was also the first production ///M car sold in the States. I recall it was for sale some months before the M5 despite the M5 having been for sale in one form or another since the E12 M535i in Europe. Of course, the M1 was sold in Europe and grey marketed here since around '79. Besides, having a coupe says "I don't need no stinking four doors!" This is a statement in itself. Ed Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks wrote: > > A few thoughts: > > From: Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:24:54 -0400 From: Ed MacVaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Floor Mats I researched this somewhat and discovered that BMW did not import mats into the US. Every item in the car when it hits the shore is subject to import duty. The less in the car, the less the duty. That is one of the reasons that the radios are Alpine units made in the US or Mexico. When you look at the European accessories catalogs for our cars, you don't even see the same mats offered there. They offer a lot of sisal mats and "velour" mats, and pure rubber mats that clearly are not intended to match the carpet. Curiously, the '87 325is came with Dupont carpeting in it (so says the brochure in the glove box). One would think the U. S. mat supplier could match that stuff . . . My wife's former Ford Taurus had dead matching mats. Ed Kevin Kelly wrote: > > P.S. Am I the only one who wonders why BMW (and every other > car maker I know of) has never made floor mats out the exact > same material as the carpet so they match perfectly? It > always seemed strange to me that they assume that the people > who buy nice cars will be happy with mats that are "about > the same color and texture" of the carpet. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:50:00 -0400 From: "matthew c. mead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] 97 M3 Vanos Question I had this done in warranty 4 months before warranty expiration. They told me it was the solenoid, rather than the whole VANOS system, though they did replace the entire VANOS system. I didn't get to see their bill for the work, but they reported 2.3 hours for two technicians. I remember seeing that the special tool to realign the cams was over $200. I have no idea how long you can go without fixing this, but I waited for a month for them to get the vanos system and tool and didn't have a breakdown. - -matt On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 05:25:21PM -0600, James McMillan wrote: > At 95k I have begun to hear a rattling coming from the location of the vanos > system above 1200 RPM. For those that have had the problem, how long before > replacement/repair is needed? How much time needed and cost for parts and > repairs? > > Thanks, > > James R. McMillan aka M3INCORP > 97 M3 Colorado > > > > - -- matthew c. mead mmead (at at at) goof (dot dot dot) com (you know what to do to email me) http://www.goof.com/~mmead/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:46:44 -0700 From: "Kevin Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] More Engine Swaps If you want even more power than the GM engines Clarke has been talking about take a look at the link below. BMW put one of their Race V12s in the new X5 SUV and lapped the Nurburgring track in Germany in under 8:00 min. For those that don't know how fast a 7:49 ring lap is, it is faster than any production car/truck/SUV ever made (including every Porsche Ferrari, Cobra, etc.). It would be fun to have a family SUV that could leave 427 Cobras in the dust... http://www.americanlemans.com/News/News.asp?ID=279 Kevin Kelly ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re.: oil in throttle body Tim: I had a bunch of oil in the TB of both my cars too - 88 iS and 89 iC. It comes out of under the valve cover. When I was changing hoses on my 89 iC, I realized that large hose on the top of the valve cover actually goes under the plenum and ends up feeding the throttle body. I'm not sure how much is good enough, but I recall an 2002 guy (Tom Kain) saying he put a ventilated plate under the valve cover to reduce it. Not sure why. Anybody? Neil Deshpande http://www.neilwerke.com *** "Timothy Shandonay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In trying to smooth out a rough idle, I decided to clean the throttle body this evening. What I found was a fair amount of oil. I did expect it to be dirty....but not with oil. Any ideas why this is happening or what needs to be fixed to stop this? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:00:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re.: Considering a 6er Bora: http://bmwe34m5.com has an E24 M6 section in the FAQ with a Buyer's Guide in it. Neil Deshpande http://www.neilwerke.com *** Bora Akyol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am considering get either an M6 or a 635(3) csi as a third car. First, am I crazy? I had a Porsche 928 before and that car was a beast to maintain. How reliable are these cars? How easy are they to work on and learn on? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:15:26 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Re.: oil in throttle body BMW crankcase ventilation pulls intake vacuum to the valve cover. This is why a leaky dipstick can alter the idle. Some oil will naturally accumulate in the intake. The perforated plate is an attempt to keep the oil droplets inside the engine. Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Tim: > > I had a bunch of oil in the TB of both my cars too - > 88 iS and 89 iC. It comes out of under the valve > cover. When I was changing hoses on my 89 iC, I > realized that large hose on the top of the valve cover > actually goes under the plenum and ends up feeding the > throttle body. > > I'm not sure how much is good enough, but I recall an > 2002 guy (Tom Kain) saying he put a ventilated plate > under the valve cover to reduce it. Not sure why. > Anybody? > > Neil Deshpande > http://www.neilwerke.com > > *** > > "Timothy Shandonay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In trying to smooth out a rough idle, I decided to > clean the throttle body this evening. What I found > was a fair amount of oil. I did expect it to be > dirty....but not with oil. Any ideas why this is > happening or what needs to be fixed to stop this? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:33:41 -0400 From: "Bill Matthews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re.: Considering a 6er Except when I tried to access the FAQ I Got /// Forbidden You don't have permission to access /faqs/ on this server. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Apache/1.3.19 Server at www.bmwe34m5.com Port 80 /// Just don't tell me I shoulda' read the FAQ first ;^O But I could see the pictures 8^) Bill Matthews Hockessin DE 00 M Geeze some Volvos > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Neil Deshpande > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 11:01 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [uuc] Re.: Considering a 6er > > > Bora: > > http://bmwe34m5.com has an E24 M6 section in the FAQ > with a Buyer's Guide in it. > > Neil Deshpande > http://www.neilwerke.com > > *** > > Bora Akyol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I am considering get either an M6 or a 635(3) csi as a > third car. First, am I crazy? I had a Porsche 928 > before and that car was a beast to maintain. How > reliable are these cars? How easy are they to work on > and learn on? > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:32:49 -0700 From: "Rodney Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? Neil, I currently own an M6 and an E-34, M5. I have upgraded both cars while first using the performance of the E-34 M5 as a metric for the M6. Let me start with this as a back drop. My first introduction as a BMW owner was a new 1990, E-34, 535i (5-speed) and a bone stock 88, M6 (20k miles). The M6 of course could run circles around the 535i. Then about a year later I(in 1991) I test drove a 91, M5...nirvana!! I quickly traded-in the 90, 535 on the M5 and I still own the M6 and 91, M5. Having the stock M5 as the new metric and loving the coupe body, I started on a quest to upgrade the M6. Your observations about the inferior M6 steering and boat like vagueness was the stock US setup. The first set of upgrades I made was to install Dinan springs, camber correcting upper strut mounts, E-28, M5 F&R sway bars(these are Euro M635 options), front sway bar mounts and E-34, M5 300x20mm rear rotors and calipers. The car still had the stock rear SLS, front struts and Michelin TRX tires. With this setup the M6 would out perform my stock 91, M5... Sorry guys, that is a fact since I have been A/B'ing the two cars for over 10 years(loaded with luggage, the significant other and driver only trips). I have since upgraded the brakes to the complete Euro, M5 big brakes, installed 18mm dowels in the front hubs and am using the M5 turbine wheels and Michelin MXX3's. The Big brakes and MXX3 upgrades were just icing on the cake, since from a performance perspective they did little to increase the performance envelope for my driving style. I have yet to track my cars however, I enjoy spirited to aggressive driving. I think, I am qualified to fairly attest to the performance of the two chassis. The M6 is quicker on the turn-in than a stock M5, extremely neutral and as responsive. The 300x20mm rear brakes, mated to the stock 300x30 w/4 piston calipers, made M6 brake application snappy with virtual elimination of the nose dive, better than the stock M5 setup. Hence the M6 now was and still is a vehicle that responds to steering, throttle and brakes input with the ultimate in nimbleness. The interior and electronics on the M6 is definitely more primitive yet still modern enough to be functional. The radio, A/C, Motronic, MAF, etc. on the E-34, M5 are all an advancement in performance over the M6. However, went it comes time to repairing the electrical systems, I appreciate the simplicity of the M6. Except fot the dual A/C in the M6. Lucky for me neither has really been a PITA. Yea, the plastic defroster vents could have used more esthetically pleasing trim. It would also be nice if the head liner and vinyl door covers on the M5 would not pull loose due to exposure to interior heat. I keep both cars under a car cover as much as possible when they are parked out of the garage, don't drive them in the winter and I live in CA. Yea, they for the most part are garage queens that come out for road trips. I have 64K on the M6 and 70K on the M5 so they by no means are unused. About 2 years ago, when I installed the Euro, M5 big on the M6, I also treated the M5 to the same brake upgrade. I also installed the stiffer Euro, E-34, M5 sway bars, springs and E-34 camber correcting upper strut mounts. The M5 still has the stock struts, SLS, turbine wheels and Michelin MXX3's. I have a set of Koni sport struts and new SL shocks waiting for some installation time. It is difficult to distinguish the difference in performance between the two ///M cars. At this point, I think the M5 may have a little more WOT performance and the M6 is more nimble through the turns. However, the difference on either account is too close to pick as an advantage. I have chipped both cars. IMHO that mod consumes more money than provides performance on either car. IMHO, the M6 is a good ///M car that just needs a few strategic upgrade to make it a great performer. Enjoy, Rod... - -------------------original message---------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:33:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] <E34/E24> M5 Vs M6? Comments? Gruppe: Paul England and I drove a 100% stock Zinnoberrot 1988 M6, 81k miles, on Wednesday. I was, of course, comparing it to my 1992 M5 as was Paul, probably. I must confess I was unimpressed and this is from someone who is not a power junkie and drives a 1988 325 iS with perfect happiness. 1. The steering seemed a bit inferior to my M5 and I guess this is from the lower ratio (14.5 vs 13.5?) and from the lack of servotronic? Comments? 2. The car appears to pivot about a point more rearward than the M5 does when steering, giving the a boatlike impression. Any idea why? I was a bit upset by this and found it the least pleasant thing of all. 3. The suspension appeared to lack stiffness. But at 81k miles should this be so? Perhaps the heavier car makes for a faster suspension degradation than an E30, but my 68k-mile M5 is a lot tighter. 4. The transmission was smooth, but the you had to reach forward for the lever. A bit of an ergonomic throwback. I found this a little odd, but no doubt a bent shift lever would fix it easily. 5. Power appeared to be a lot lower than my M5. Could this be the low-down torque or just the top end? I'm not sure, but is appeared to be quick, but not rapid. I've always thought both my 88 iS and my 92 M5 as being quite rapid. 6. The quality of the interior appeared to be worse than the E30 88 iS. The plastic bits did not mesh as well (particularly the bits covering the vertical panel just below the windscreen. Is this correct or did I just drive a crappy car? I'd welcome any comments as I really like the M6 and am kind of thinking that if some things fall into place I'd like to dump my 89 iC and take on another car that will be a little less than perfect so I can do some mods as wanted (rather than repairs as needed) to it. My fiancee is tending to the E30 M3 so I'm thinking E24 M6. As a matter of interest, Paul England was driving my M5 post the test-drive when a 1985 Euro 635Csi with the tag M6GEEK pulled up alongside him. The driver said he had some recent engine work done and was putting out 300 HP or so. It appeared to be Diamantschwarz (though much peeled) and Paul and I both thought it would look pretty cool in Carbon Black. Neil Deshpande http://www.neilwerke.com - ---------------end------------------- - --- Rodney Moore BMW CCA #86830 Golden Gate Chapter [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #3917 *************************** ________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | Camptown Automotive - http://www.camptownauto.com | Circle Tire Co. (used & classic BMW parts) e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Detailwerks Chicago Inc. "Chicago's Premier Automotive Appearance | Center" . http://www.detailwerkschicago.com |==================================================== | Koala MotorSport . 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