[uucdigest] Thursday, July 31 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6618
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] Re: M2 [uuc] FW: M2 [uuc] How not to dyno a car... Re: [uuc] M2 Re: [uuc] M2 [uuc] Re: M2 Re: [uuc] M2 RE: [uuc] M2 [uuc] Re: Lotus Elise (was : Re: M2) [uuc] Re: [uucdigest] E46 boards Re: [uuc] M2 Re: [uuc] M2 RE: [uuc] Re: Lotus Elise (was : Re: M2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:28:25 -0700 (PDT) From: John Bolhuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: M2 On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Gary Derian wrote: > You and about 5 other people would buy that car. The Lotus Elyse is > available for that crowd. The realities of today's market demand a larger > car. like my BMW/Peterbilt idea? I stole the idea from the old "ultimatesuv.com" page, but the turbofan was my idea. but really, wouldn't we settle for a sub-3000 pound car? BMW could attract some of the people that are now driving an RX-7, or an RX-8, or an S2000, or an MR-2, or hell, the Focus SVT? > I used to want a 2000 lb 2 liter car, but I am happier with my 3800 lb 3.6 > liter car when I'm playing SUV tag in traffic. For those of us who play SUV tag on a sub 400 lb motorcycle most days, one of these would feel like a rolling palace! I refuse to let the masses (pun intended) dictate how much more my vehicle should weigh. - -- "It is an honor to be Cookie Monster." -Sesame Street spokeswoman Audrey Shapiro ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:43:47 -0700 From: Donn Vickrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] FW: M2 > > Give me something the size of a miata that handles like a bmw, makes > > north of 200hp and 160ft/lbs, weighs under 2500lbs. Add a redline > > of at least 8000 rpm, 4.10 or better gears, and a 6 speed gearbox... I was thinking along the same lines, except with 500 HP and 500 ft lbs... Donn Vickrey Scottsdale, AZ 98 IS/T2 M3 race car 02 996TT Evolution Motorsports Stage 4GT (640+ HP) daily driver 03 Navigator tow vehicle and tot hauler ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:05:38 -0400 From: "Luis Rueda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] How not to dyno a car... Ouch! <http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?s=ed283de85b6bde2e2509d5de3b3d3744&threadid=14726> Luis BMWCCA member ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:33:32 -0400 From: "Eurowerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] M2 WAY too many E36 M3's on the roads IMHO. Could the reason that you don't see as many E46's is because they are not as old as the E36? When the E36's came around, there were alot more E30 M3's on the road. After about 3 or 4 years, the E30's almost disappeared. I think the E36's will be more prevalent due to the fact that they built more of them. Kirk A. Gilchrist EURO-WERKS / Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volvo Service and Repair 8 South Highland St. / Winchester, KY 40391 / 859-745-0125 [EMAIL PROTECTED] / 888-522-0271 toll free ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:43:03 -0700 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] M2 Robinson, Lee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Nobody will buy it. > > Here's the deal, the specs you guys are throwing out are already in a car > BMW produced. The E30 M3. 195hp, 177 lb-ft 2700-2800lbs. It is an > automotive icon, yet was never popular enough to make more than a cult car > in the US. The reason the E30 M3 never sold well is that is cost THIRTY-FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS IN 1988. That's a TON of money for a car like that. Compare that to the E36 M3, which cost the same amount seven years later. - - Mark - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:59:31 +0300 From: Robert Phelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: M2 > For those of us who play SUV tag on a sub 400 lb motorcycle most >days, one of these would feel like a rolling palace! I refuse to let >the masses (pun intended) dictate how much more my vehicle should >weigh. "Amen Brother." And when I get squashed by one of those incompetent-soccer-mom-transporting beasts, they'll probably put that on my headstone. Right now I'm actually riding here in Helsinki Finland on a borrowed CBR600, and there's nary an SUV in sight! Man it's going to be hard to come back to the states where next to no one can drive worth a flip. These Fins put us to shame. Speaking of Nordic drivers, whatever happened to UUC's most colorful Norwegian? Good luck avoiding the rolling examples of lazy excess. Later, Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:03:38 -0700 From: Rex Tener <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] M2 At 10:43 AM 7/31/2003 -0700, Mark Dadgar wrote: >Robinson, Lee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Nobody will buy it. > > > > Here's the deal, the specs you guys are throwing out are already in a car > > BMW produced. The E30 M3. 195hp, 177 lb-ft 2700-2800lbs. It is an > > automotive icon, yet was never popular enough to make more than a cult car > > in the US. > >The reason the E30 M3 never sold well is that is cost THIRTY-FIVE THOUSAND >DOLLARS IN 1988. That's a TON of money for a car like that. Compare that >to the E36 M3, which cost the same amount seven years later. The inflation calculator says: What cost $35000 in 1988 would cost $45646.79 in 1995. What cost $35000 in 1988 would cost $53204.71 in 2002. http://www.westegg.com/inflation/index.html The 1995 M3 definitely was a great value. I will be on the hunt for another '95 M3, hopefully, next year. - -- Rex Tener [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1996 BMW M3, SCCA SFR Solo II Street-Mod Light (as in lightly modified) #173 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:09:04 -0400 From: "Zidlicky, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] M2 Actually, I believe sales of the E30 M3 exceeded BMW's expectations ... they only needed to produce 500 a year to qualify the car for racing. So final sales doubled or tripled original plans ... but even then, the car was destined for cult status and given the way the prices are holding up, the demand for such a vehicle seems to be rather healthy Price was definitely a factor, especially relative to the 325i that was $5k cheaper and nearly as fast from a 0-60 mph sprint and sales and resale values did suffer from the '90-'92 recession. The price differential is still there ... that said, name a car of a similar vintage that has maintained 33% of its original sticker ??? But in my humble view, the vast majority of buyers would have chosen the 325i even if the two cars cost the same ... the 325i would have gotten all the buyers that prefer slush boxes and probably 100% of the buyers not interested in the sports package ... let's face it, there are a minority of drivers that actually prefer/enjoy the buzzbox nature of a 4 cyl engine whose power band begins post 4000 rpm and with the rear view mirror constantly shaking when the car is new ... maybe a decent amount of folks on this list, but the percent of people even willing to consider such a car couldn't have been north of 10% of the 3-series buyers at the time, regardless of price. That said, count me as part of the minority. Wife tolerates the car because she still likes me ... 3-yr old daughter likes the vrooooom vroommmm Peter '88 m3 '90 325ic Mark Dadgar wrote: >The reason the E30 M3 never sold well is that is cost THIRTY-FIVE THOUSAND >DOLLARS IN 1988. That's a TON of money for a car like that. Compare that >to the E36 M3, which cost the same amount seven years later. Robinson, Lee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Nobody will buy it. >> >> Here's the deal, the specs you guys are throwing out are already in a car >> BMW produced. The E30 M3. 195hp, 177 lb-ft 2700-2800lbs. It is an >> automotive icon, yet was never popular enough to make more than a cult car >> in the US. This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:09:33 -0400 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Lotus Elise (was : Re: M2) Marco Romani wrote: > Look up info on the 2004 Lotus Elise. I test drove one a few weeks ago in > UK trim. It was amazing. Granted it's not an everyday car, but it was > nearly perfect if you're into spartan sports cars. the Elise will eventually make it here. when it does it will have a Toyota engine of some sort (the Rover K-Series is uncertifiable for US emissions) and will likely cost $35-$40k. at that price & for as spartan as it is (or even if they slather it with a couple hundred lbs of options) it will be a nice car, but it's not going to be true to the original incarnation of the Elise in the sub-2,000 lb range. for that sort of money it will attract a very small margin of the market, which is fine since Lotus can't build that many of them anyway. a lot of the people who wanted an Elise bad enough when they first came out ~5 years ago have gotten their hands onto one by now, either thru the official "track-only" Sport 190's that Lotus USA sold or thru the various grey-market importers who manage to sell them somehow over here & their owners who manage to register them somehow. I'd still take a Caterham R300/R400 for the same money as the Elise & have a much quicker car with even less weight & more power. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:17:37 -0400 From: "Lin Gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: [uucdigest] E46 boards http://www.bimmerforums.com http://www.bimmerfest.com http://www.e46fanatics.com The first two are more extablished. Gary Lin '95 330ti '85 325i ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:21:01 -0700 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] M2 Zidlicky, Peter at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The price differential is still there ... that said, name a car of a similar > vintage that has maintained 33% of its original sticker ??? '88 911's are in the low $20K's. But then 911's, up until the 996, have always had unbelievable value retention. - - Mark - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:15:55 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] M2 But car prices have not kept up with inflation recently. Car inflation was very high during the 1980's, especially European brands. Once the Japanese went upmarket, the Euro guys got serious about competing. Since then, prices have been pretty flat. What other cars could one buy in 1988 for $35,000? Gary Derian > > > >The reason the E30 M3 never sold well is that is cost THIRTY-FIVE THOUSAND > >DOLLARS IN 1988. That's a TON of money for a car like that. Compare that > >to the E36 M3, which cost the same amount seven years later. > > The inflation calculator says: > > What cost $35000 in 1988 would cost $45646.79 in 1995. > > What cost $35000 in 1988 would cost $53204.71 in 2002. > > http://www.westegg.com/inflation/index.html > > The 1995 M3 definitely was a great value. I will be on the hunt for > another '95 M3, hopefully, next year. > > > -- > Rex Tener > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 1996 BMW M3, SCCA SFR Solo II Street-Mod Light (as in lightly modified) #173 > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:39:59 -0700 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re: Lotus Elise (was : Re: M2) The exact reasons I'm waiting to see what the real US Elise is going to be before I make a buy/no buy decision. There is still too many rumors. The official announcement is sometime late in August. Marco - -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ben keyes Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] Re: Lotus Elise (was : Re: M2) Marco Romani wrote: > Look up info on the 2004 Lotus Elise. I test drove one a few weeks ago in > UK trim. It was amazing. Granted it's not an everyday car, but it was > nearly perfect if you're into spartan sports cars. the Elise will eventually make it here. when it does it will have a Toyota engine of some sort (the Rover K-Series is uncertifiable for US emissions) and will likely cost $35-$40k. at that price & for as spartan as it is (or even if they slather it with a couple hundred lbs of options) it will be a nice car, but it's not going to be true to the original incarnation of the Elise in the sub-2,000 lb range. for that sort of money it will attract a very small margin of the market, which is fine since Lotus can't build that many of them anyway. a lot of the people who wanted an Elise bad enough when they first came out ~5 years ago have gotten their hands onto one by now, either thru the official "track-only" Sport 190's that Lotus USA sold or thru the various grey-market importers who manage to sell them somehow over here & their owners who manage to register them somehow. I'd still take a Caterham R300/R400 for the same money as the Elise & have a much quicker car with even less weight & more power. Ben ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6618 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | |==================================================== | Turner Motorsport Inc . 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