[uucdigest] Friday, September 12 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6744
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? Re: [uuc] GT40 (OT) RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? < LARGELY OT RANT> Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? <communist rants> RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:43:23 -0400 From: Ed MacVaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? Rob, I lost the election. I didn't use whitewash and varnish. My phone service (office and home) is much better than ever in the 70s and 80s. I don't pay for services I don't need or pay extra for those that are built in (like Bell charging for touch tone long after all their switches were exclusively touch tone). Interesting observations regarding comparison of your business to Ma Bell. Ma Bell always let home subscribers subsidize the more expensive to provide business service. The new telecom suppliers can't for competition and bargain conscious consumers won't permit it. Plus disclosure laws require it to be revealed now. The post office is still doing the same thing, letting individuals subsidize business mailings. That too will stop. Your argument regarding your business lost steam when you started wholesaling your products for sale by others. If you sell to five shops in Maryland cheaper than you will sell to me over the internet, you are playing favorites. The issue then is not whether the duchess is a prostitute but rather the cost of her services. If I then ask for a discount, I am cheating you out of no more money that if I went to one of those five local establishments and bought from them, for you would receive the same for your goods. Valentine is the only BMW oriented supplier who could logically and honestly make your arguments, for he accepts only one price for his goods, regardless to whom he sells. Ed Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks wrote: >And you ran for public office? ;-) > >As Jamie Howton suggested in his previous post, it's the "bargain hunters" whose >goal is not the product/service, but rather to have the perception of "winning >the game" that simultaneously drives down costs _and_ quality for the rest of >us. > >Anybody notice that phone service has gotten progressively worse since the >mid-'80s? Wonder if that has to do with the dismantling of a comfortably >profitable Ma Bell that could afford to service the customers and equipment... >so we get left with a government-forced breakup of price-competitive service >providers that find ways of making more money without responsibility to the big >picture. My phone bills are up, my quality of service is down, and I can >directly thank the "shoppers" who quite dispassionately could not care less >about the affect their last-penny-pinching has. > >- Rob > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ed MacVaugh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? > > > > >>... although the seller needs X% to remain >>viable, it doesn't matter to seller where that money comes from. It >>doesn't matter to me, either, so long as it's not coming from me. I am >>perfectly happy to get the best regional price on dealer parts and to >>have every other buyer pay full retail to offset my discount. >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:26:11 -0400 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] GT40 (OT) Ed MacVaugh wrote: > I don't know if I would trust that source. I have met many GT-40 drivers > and stood next to a few of them. Not a one was only 5 feet tall. hmn. the interior on the original cars was pretty small, tho not as small as they make it out to be in that link, but it doesn't mean that they've got the numbers wrong, which they don't. Ben didn't ask to sit in the production car they had at work a few months back, but was very tempted. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:54:54 -0400 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? < LARGELY OT RANT> I'm sorry, but that is free-market CAPITALISM! Production goes where it is cheapest or otherwise most advantageous for business. There is still a market for higher quality products built at higher expense. Witness BMW and Kia or Snap-On and Craftsman. Everyone complains about the loss of industry in the US, but on the flip side look at the tremendous increase in the service industry. We are becoming a service economy. A similar thing has already occurred on the local level. Should I be upset because I cannot buy a car built in New Hampshire anymore (actually, I personally never could, but you get the point)? Or that my local supermarket does not sell meats and produce from New Hampshire? Production of those goods has mostly or completely shifted out of my state. They have been replaced with other industries or services. On a global level, industry is shifting out of the US while services are increasing. It is never a happy time when someone loses their job, but it is a part of our economy. If you want all jobs to be guaranteed, you need to move to a socialist or communist economy. I'd say that despite the short-term pangs such as job loss and Walmart putting small local stores out of business, the free market system has worked awfully well for the US. We are THE world dominant economy. Stan Jamie Howton wrote: > Think about it the next time you are shopping at > Wal-Mart, Kmart, Costco, Home Depot -- you are happily facilitating the > demise of US manufacturing and are damn proud that you got a bargain. > It's true, you did, but at whose expense. > > Most likely the supplier would > bend and reduce his prices in order to keep the work, but then wouldn't > be able to pay his employees as much or would not be able to keep that > recent hire and would have to lay him/her off again. It is a vicious > cycle, is it worth it to you to save the $30 on the $300 short shifter > when the real cost might be someone elses job? > > I don't know what my real point is here except to say that it may not be > _you_ but _someone_ always pays the price. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:25:51 -0400 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? It is not so much the bargain hunters, but rather the uneducated consumers (who seem to make up most of the market) that are driving down prices and at the same time quality. Someone who takes the time to shop around (bargain hunter) likely has done his product research and knows what he is looking for (like Ed and I). The uneducated consumer simply buys the cheapest, easiest to find product. The uneducated consumer refuses to consider the value of higher quality or better service. In the case of telephone service, it has to do with the product. When there is no perceived difference between different brands of a product, it becomes a commodity. Price then rules. What we are now seeing is that given some time to change, telephone service is not a commodity after all. However, because uneducated consumers drive the market, no company can afford to offer higher quality service at a higher price. Hopefully, if and when service gets bad enough, a company will do just that. Then the quality will rise across the board, just as it has with American-made automobiles. BTW, I doubt that the cost of telephone service has risen using any reasonable economic criteria. There has been inflation and other increases in wages and costs. Perhaps more importantly, people use their phones much more than they did in the '80's. Don't you remember not staying on the phone long when on long distance calls? Very few people are concerned with that anymore, unless they are on a cell phone. Because you are using the phone more, your bill goes up even though the cost per unit of use went down -- exactly what the telephone companies hoped. Stan Rob Levinson wrote: > > And you ran for public office? ;-) > > As Jamie Howton suggested in his previous post, it's the "bargain hunters" whose > goal is not the product/service, but rather to have the perception of "winning > the game" that simultaneously drives down costs _and_ quality for the rest of > us. > > Anybody notice that phone service has gotten progressively worse since the > mid-'80s? Wonder if that has to do with the dismantling of a comfortably > profitable Ma Bell that could afford to service the customers and equipment... > so we get left with a government-forced breakup of price-competitive service > providers that find ways of making more money without responsibility to the big > picture. My phone bills are up, my quality of service is down, and I can > directly thank the "shoppers" who quite dispassionately could not care less > about the affect their last-penny-pinching has. > > - - Rob > > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ed MacVaugh" > > >... although the seller needs X% to remain > > viable, it doesn't matter to seller where that money comes from. It > > doesn't matter to me, either, so long as it's not coming from me. I am > > perfectly happy to get the best regional price on dealer parts and to > > have every other buyer pay full retail to offset my discount. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:28:03 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? <communist rants> Interestingly WalMart just a few short years ago prided itself on selling only US made goods. The fact that now they can't or won't is a multifaceted issue from the pressures brought to bear by a an overtaxed, increasingly undereducated customer base to corporate interests driven by short term metrics to leverage a stock price for personal gain (nothing wrong with that except where it becomes the sole purpose). I guess the only solace might be that sooner or later the low cost sources come under pressure from another region and then even the former incumbent ships his jobs to the new contender. The greatness of America is our ability to weather the short term pain and pop out of the other side the stronger for it. The sad part is that lately our education system is not feeding the pipe with anything even remotely approaching quality. - -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:45:33 -0400 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? Rob, I am going to have to call you on this. Are you telling us that you ONLY make enough money to stay in business and live? Hardly. You price your products at a level the market will bear. You make as much money as you reasonably can. If you don't do that, you are not a very good business man. There are a very small number of people out there who truly don't care about material things or long-term planning. These people will do business or work for just enough to survive and not care about more. But these people are rare. I have no problem if you or another vender chooses not to offer a CCA discount or a quantity discount. However, you are missing the benefit of such a discount. By giving a discount to CCA members, you are bringing in and retaining better customers. These "better" customers are more likely to understand products and services and their benefit. This means they are less likely to return it, won't be calling you repeatedly for installation help, and won't be returning products under warranty that were abused (sometimes you can be sure of the abuse and refuse replacement, other times you cannot and must honor your warranty or guarantee). AND, these better customers will take the time and effort to recommend your products or services to other potential customers. What you are missing, is that the CCA discount is a form of advertising, just like running the UUC Digest! Whether the CCA discount is a form of advertising that is financially beneficial to your business is for you to decide. Which is why I am fine with you choosing not to offer the discount -- just be sure you understand the potential benefits and have weighed the value against the cost. Stan Rob Levinson wrote: > > Think about basic business; a vendor needs to make X% just to stay in > business. He _will_ make that, and the customers _must_ pay it if > the business relationship is to continue beyond short-term > unprofitable product turn-over, otherwise the business fails and the > customers lose that resource. If artificially high prices are > required to satisfy the customer who expects a discount, then that is > what happens - and in the end, the customer pays the same price, the > vendor earns his X%, and everybody has played a game. Get rid of the > game and build a relationship of trust and value. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:49:35 -0400 From: "Rob Levinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? - ---- Original Message ---- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? >My phone service (office and home) is much better than ever in the 70s and 80s. Mine doesn't seem to be. I can't get a buzz off one home line, I get "all circuits busy" when calling many previously fine areas, my area code has been changed twice, and I am stuck using a local "private" company for business service with the feel of a basement call center. I also get annoying phone calls and spam all the time for lower phone rates which never actually materialize. Back in the '80s, it all seemed to work very smoothly, and I could buy or rent reasonably-priced Bell phones that were warranteed as long as I had my service. I disagree with the assertion that competition has improved our phone service. >Interesting observations regarding comparison of your business to Ma Bell. Ma Bell always let home subscribers subsidize the more expensive >to provide business service. The new telecom suppliers can't for competition and bargain conscious consumers won't permit it. Plus disclosure laws require it to be revealed now. Meddling lawmakers. Seriously, if companies can be forced not to monopolize (by the way, there are good monopolies), then how dare legislators demand disclosure of their practices? Pick one or the other, but having it both ways is absurd. By your argument, competition alone would force the subsidization practices to stop. Legislate 100% or let competition run free. Many lawmakers need to learn what having a real job is like. > The post office is still >doing the same thing, letting individuals subsidize business >mailings. That too will stop. I seem to always get my mail on time, and the post office employees are the nicest people I deal with on a business level. Funny how that works. I don't say that to be argumentative, but it is my legitimate observation. >Your argument regarding your business lost steam when you started >wholesaling your products for sale by others. If you sell to five >shops >in Maryland cheaper than you will sell to me over the internet, you are >playing favorites. > The issue then is not whether the duchess is a >prostitute but rather the cost of her services. If I then ask for a >discount, I am cheating you out of no more money that if I went to >one of those five local establishments and bought from them, for you would >receive the same for your goods. Welcome to basic capitalist theory. A retailer gets a discount because he is saving me money when he buys bulk quantities - I don't have the expenses of time processing individual customer orders, advertising to reach those customers, facilities to install for those customers, warehousing for that product, and many other savings. My cost to profit ratio is effectively the same, yet my total exposure and volume increases. The retailer is trading me his services for a discount on the product. I get money from him and savings in time and expenses on my end. It all works out to everyone's mutual benefit - including the customer. The end customer pays roughly the same thing from the dealer (sometimes less!) and has a qualified installer local to him. That retailer is providing a valuable service to you that I simply cannot due to distance. This practice, which costs no customer any additional money compared to when I had no dealers, is a value-added service born of the efficiencies of a dealer network. When viewed that way, my argument picks up a hell of a lot of steam. > Valentine is the only BMW oriented >supplier who could logically and honestly make your arguments, for he >accepts only one price for his goods, regardless to whom he sells. And it is indeed an admirable model, yet his product line is different. Unlike mine, his does not need installation services or technical assistance. Anybody can install the V1 product, professional installation is not required. Whereas I may be able to change my own flywheel, most people cannot. I thought that difference would be obvious. This is the same reason why we have BMW dealerships - there is a service requirement and a customer desire to pre-experience the product, neither of which can be served by a single remote mail order source. Keeping them privately owned and operated is the cornerstone of the bright side of our economic structure, the captalist's desire to gain and retain market share and a customer base, usually (and hopefully) by providing good service as required. The dark flipside is the sacrifice of good service for marginal and short-term gains. What I am talking about here is more than Econ 101 - it's the extended enlightenment of real-world Economics that constantly shatters all textbook scenarios. - -Rob ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6744 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | |==================================================== | Turner Motorsport Inc . 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