[uucdigest] Friday, September 12 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6745
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RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? <communist rants> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:56:17 -0400 From: "Bill Matthews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ed MacVaugh > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 5:43 PM <snip some stuff> > > Your argument regarding your business lost steam when you started > wholesaling your products for sale by others. If you sell to five shops > in Maryland cheaper than you will sell to me over the internet, you are > playing favorites. Ed, I'm sure Rob doesn't need me to justify his marketing practices and in fact I'm not (at least his alone). The fact is independent distribution channels provide services that they get paid for. By having independent distribution channels Rob, (and many other "originating product" businesses) don't have to add to their own staff to provide those services. They pay for them by discounting to the middleman who also assumes some risk in the transaction. To compare discounting into distribution channels with discounting direct sales to the consumer is loosing site of apples vs oranges at best and disingenuous at worst. As always YM and POV MV Bill Matthews Hockessin DE 00 M Geeze some Volvos other cars ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:12:45 -0400 From: "C. Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? < LARGELY OT RANT> As has been pointed out already, it's not nearly that simple. Chinese manufacturers don't have to deal with many costs of their Western competition. Worker's compensation. Benefits of all kinds. Environmental regulations. Fair wages. Etc., etc., etc.. The list is very long. On top of that, Chinese manufacturing is effectively subsidized by a currency pegged at about 8:1 to the U.S. dollar. And their is a huge amount of bad debt by the government banks to Chinese companies, again effectively subsidizing the capitalization of these enterprises. These factors result in unfair trade at best. The playing field is not level. That's where the politics come in. Why is there a large tariff against Canadian softwood? Because the softwood interests in the U.S. speak the loudest and get the government to claim that Canada is illegally subsidizing softwood, despite the opposite view of the World Trade Commission (or whatever it's called). Unfortunately, the loudest voice when it comes to most things manufactured is from the companies that want to buy them, not the companies that are being displaced. As was said to me the other day, we want to make the huge money in this country, we just don't want to spend (pay for) it. Chris B. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 6:54 PM Subject: RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? < LARGELY OT RANT> > I'm sorry, but that is free-market CAPITALISM! Production goes where it is > cheapest or otherwise most advantageous for business. There is still a > market for higher quality products built at higher expense. Witness BMW and > Kia or Snap-On and Craftsman. Everyone complains about the loss of industry > in the US, but on the flip side look at the tremendous increase in the > service industry. We are becoming a service economy. A similar thing has > already occurred on the local level. Should I be upset because I cannot buy > a car built in New Hampshire anymore (actually, I personally never could, > but you get the point)? Or that my local supermarket does not sell meats > and produce from New Hampshire? Production of those goods has mostly or > completely shifted out of my state. They have been replaced with other > industries or services. On a global level, industry is shifting out of the > US while services are increasing. > > It is never a happy time when someone loses their job, but it is a part of > our economy. If you want all jobs to be guaranteed, you need to move to a > socialist or communist economy. I'd say that despite the short-term pangs > such as job loss and Walmart putting small local stores out of business, the > free market system has worked awfully well for the US. We are THE world > dominant economy. > > Stan > > > Jamie Howton wrote: > > > Think about it the next time you are shopping at > > Wal-Mart, Kmart, Costco, Home Depot -- you are happily facilitating the > > demise of US manufacturing and are damn proud that you got a bargain. > > It's true, you did, but at whose expense. > > > > Most likely the supplier would > > bend and reduce his prices in order to keep the work, but then wouldn't > > be able to pay his employees as much or would not be able to keep that > > recent hire and would have to lay him/her off again. It is a vicious > > cycle, is it worth it to you to save the $30 on the $300 short shifter > > when the real cost might be someone elses job? > > > > I don't know what my real point is here except to say that it may not be > > _you_ but _someone_ always pays the price. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:18:29 -0400 From: "Rob Levinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? - ---- Original Message ---- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? >Rob, I am going to have to call you on this. Are you telling us that >you >ONLY make enough money to stay in business and live? Not at all. I make enough to employ several other people in a profession they love, and I pour an inordinate amount of money into R&D to provide better and often more cost-effective products. My company is a classic model of a growth-driven company with growth achieved by muliplying offerings and gaining word-of-mouth exposure. >I have no problem if you or another vender chooses not to offer a CCA >discount or a quantity discount. However, you are missing the >benefit of >such a discount. By giving a discount to CCA members, you are >bringing in >and retaining better customers. Therein lies the problem; while there are indeed many fine people in the CCA, there are likewise as many whackos and bad apples as one would find in the population as a whole. Given that late-model BMW ownership rules out the demographic fringes of the destitute and non-functionally insane, would anyone believe that a CCA member is a "better person" than a BMW owner who simply reads European Car magazine? It's okay to be elitist if one chooses, but to say that spending the $30 on a membership makes one a better person is to be guilty of the snobbery that the unwashed masses accuse BMW owners of in the first place, just with more fine detail. Is a 5-series owner better than a 3-series owner, all of whom are inferior to a 7-series owner? No, of course not. They just have $30,000 more to spend on the car in addition to the $30 CCA membership fee. As Groucho Marx (an alternate form of Marxism worth studying) said, "I wouldn't be a member of any club that would have me." >These "better" customers are more >likely to >understand products and services and their benefit. This means they >are >less likely to return it, won't be calling you repeatedly for >installation >help, and won't be returning products under warranty that were abused >(sometimes you can be sure of the abuse and refuse replacement, other >times >you cannot and must honor your warranty or guarantee). Spend a day at UUC answering the phones. I'll let you keep the tally on CCA members vs. non-members and see what the differences are. Frankly, all of my customers are just "good people" that happen to own BMWs. Some are also Masons, Lions, electrical union members, students, politicians, doctors... all members of other groups with no correlation as to how they may or may not cause a business further expense with service costs. Additionally, it's _my_ job to keep the above costs down... quality of product, durability of product, clarity of instructions, and satisfaction in performance are all my job. The better I do all of those things, the lower my service and warranty costs, the happier my customers. Because I have so little of those problems, on the rare occassion when there is indeed an issue, I have the freedom to go beyond reasonable expectations to remedy the problem. > AND, these >better >customers will take the time and effort to recommend your products or >services to other potential customers. What you are missing, is that >the >CCA discount is a form of advertising, just like running the UUC >Digest! The waters really are muddier than that. The #1 demographic for BMW performance these days is the 17-25 year old male. Frighteningly enough, many have never heard of the BMW CCA. Word of mouth spreads through multiple channels other than the CCA, whether it be local car clubs, message boards and mailing lists, shows, and magazine coverage. Into that part of the topic a little deeper, it pains me that the CCA is not as deeply involved with the newer crowd. It is so obvious how to remedy this - for the paltry $30, the local CCA and local dealerships could work a partnership to get these new customers involved with the club. Works for Subaru and the SCCA. >Whether the CCA discount is a form of advertising that is financially >beneficial to your business is for you to decide. You're missing the distinction between advertising and baiting. That's been my point all along - a discount offered to all is no discount, it's regular price. Failure to see that, or more particularly the taking advantage of that blindness, is an insult to the customer. I have greater respect for my customers than to do that, and I hope they can appreciate that fact. - - Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:20:45 -0400 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] CCA Discounts for Businesses? <communist rants> Jamie, you seem to think that the Chinese have all the advantages. They don't. The US has a superior financial system, better infrastructure, and much less bribery/kickbacks/payoffs. But you are correct, right now the third world countries have the overall advantage. And the US is even supporting some of these countries with free handouts in the form of economic support packages ($$$) -- I'm sure that you hate that. However, the world as a global economy is improving as a result. In time, the Chinese will have better business practices. And they will have to meet more stringent environmental regulations. In time, industry will shift to other areas of the globe. Perhaps even eventually shifting back to the US. It won't happen next year, but it will happen. Slowly but surely the entire world is heading towards a more even field in regards to standards of living and working environments. That is at least partially the result of free markets, capitalism, and countries like ours (and others) who actually do care about the people in the rest of the world. Long-term benefits often come at short-term expense. If we did not have a capitalist economy for the last 200+ years, you might not even have the opportunity to own a business, several cars, multiple TV's, etc. You might be living like the Chinese. The short-term pressure/expense that you are feeling now may increase the standards of living and/or the opportunities for your son or daughter and their sons and daughters because it does increase efficiency, even if efficiency is not currently the primary factor in many industries. Perhaps you would rather have closed economies all around the world? Screw the Chinese, let them keep living as they are? Without the ability to trade with other countries, our capitalist economy would not have been nearly as successful as it has been, so you are then back at living more like the Chinese too ... Stan Jamie Howton wrote: > > The fact that I am not likely to agree with you here has nothing to do > with my livelyhood "being at stake" as you suggest, it has more to do > with the fact that I think that you are wrong. You seem to think that > there is some kind of parity betweeen US and Chinese manufacturers in > the way that business is conducted. You are wrong. I do compete with > the Chinese in some markets, I ship parts to Hong Kong, Singapore and > Malaysia and I am very familiar with the way that business is conducted. > Contracts are usually awarded based upon bribes, kickbacks and payouts > all of which are illegal business practices in this country. No > environmental controls are employed wahtsoever. No human rights issues > are even considered. Very frequently vendors are not paid, ever. > That's how they beat us, not by being more efficient as you seem to > believe. > It's not capitalism at all. It's American companies trying to compete > in a capitalist sytem against communist governments who aren't even on > the same playing field as far as being good corporate citizens. So when > your son or daughter can't find a job because there aren't any left in > this country you can tell them to vote with their feet and move to > Pakistan so that they can work in a tech support call center for $0.50 > per day. ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6745 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . 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