----- Original Message -----
From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:44 AM
> Excuse me. But at once raising taxes to a standard that we have here in
>Europe isn't what anybody suggested.
Actually _I_ suggested Europe like fuel taxes being phased in. Remember I
do favor strong conservation measures. I just don't think they come without
a price.
>Besides companies get the most part of their taxes paid on fuel back.
Care to cite a source on that? I don't know what is done in Europe but that
as far as I know that is a false statement for the US. Any US Brin-L person
is more than welcome to correct me here. Truckers don't get checks from the
state of Texas reimbursing them for the cost of the state road tax.When I
drove fleet cars at work, I paid the tax. The only exception is farm
machinery that is not run on the roads.
>Also taxes on goods are lower or non existent for companies.
Please cite a source on this. Particularly for the US. I'd love to see it,
because my little company pays taxes on goods. :-)
> So this example you are giving is rather incorrect. The only thing said
here is
> that the gradual increase in this country as in the whole of the EU may
have
> coused a shift in occupations or to different areas, but it still hasn't
> resulted in mass bankruptcy.
>
I never said mass bankruptcy. I said "And, if we do things like raise taxes,
we will drive hardworking people into bankruptcy. They will be hurt and
angry about it. It is still the right thing to do, but it will not be
without harm."
I stated I favored it. I never said that the bankruptcies would be massive.
But I do expect them to be on the nightly news and featured in tearful
Congressional hearings. There is a price to pay for changing the economic
status quo, even if you are doing the right thing.
Addressing the general question, to put it bluntly, you seem to have very
little idea of how the economy of the US works. The US is a very big
country. The economy has been well integrated for at least 100 years.
People in the US have been moving freely for years.
Trucks run from one side of the country to another. Fuel, at about 5 mpg,
is a truckers single greatest variable cost. Increasing the cost by a
factor of >3, even in 25% steps, will have an impact on the amount of
trucking done. How in the world could it not?
> There are companies over here that make a nice profit but have to work
really
> hard for it.
I had guessed that there were, but I asked.
>That goes for truckdrivers just the same as for a small time shop
>or a little restaurant. And there aren't only multinationals and rich
>people running them. You think it is easier over here to keep a small
business
>running?
No, but you seem to disregard any problems a small company may have. Lets
look
at a restaurant. Lets say its a little steak house, and that the hoof and
mouth disease has made beef expensive and hard to get. If they have to
raise their prices 30% just to cover the beef, some customers who love the
place may find that they can't afford it any more and stop coming. Some of
the
restaurants will have to go out of business. When restaurants go out of
business, you can't get good value for restaurant equipment. Bankruptcy may
be the only alternative.
What do you thing happens when economic conditions forces a small
businessman out of existence? How do the owners cope? Can't their creditors
come after them?
.
> working. Hard working enough you smug super hero American. You think you
guys
> are the only ones working hard or what? Jeez.
>
No. I would guess a small business owner in any county would put in long
hours. But, let me point out that I was responding to the following:
"Since the oil crisis in the 1970's, taxes on car fuels here have gone up
dramatically (IIRC, some 90% of the price of fuel is taxes nowadays). No
hardworking Dutchman has gone bankrupt because of it. A few years ago, the
government put an "ecotax" on energy. This lead to higher energy bills, but
no hardworking Dutchman has gone bankrupt because of it"
The insinuation that I took is that the owner/operator truck drivers who are
having trouble coping with the price of fuel now and those that would have
trouble with the fuel taxes in the future are just not working hard enough.
Please read the worlds I wrote.
Plus, I've regularly seen anger from you and Jeroen concerning things
American. Insulting food, culture, working habits, etc. Why are y'all so
angry?
I don't mean to disparage your families work habits. I believe you when you
said that you've had hard working independent busiesspeople in your family.
I'm sure both of you put in a real effort at your jobs. I assumed you didn't
have small business people in your family because you seemed to have no
feel for the problems of a small business. I still don't understand why you
don't believe that at least some of the small businesses in a field will go
out of business if
their costs are increased. Going out of business risks bankruptcy.
If we make energy more expensive to promote conservation, energy intensive
businesses will be put in a squeeze. Some will go belly up. How could that
not happen?
But, speaking of working hours it is a fact that the average American
salaried worker puts in more hours of unpaid overtime than the averaged
salaried worker in any European country. Its a fact that the average
vacation length is shorter. Remember, I've worked for multinationals and
have compared notes with colleagues in a multitude of countries. I've been
in Norway when the office became a ghost town at 4PM. I've had German
co-workers laugh at the long hours Americans work and tell me its because we
aren't very productive. (the numbers show the US is more productive than
Germany) I've had Brits complain about only starting a new job with 4 weeks
of vacation, when I had 3 after 13 years with the company.
But, maybe the Netherlands is different. Do salaried workers regularly put
in nights and weekends? Have you gone to work on a major holiday to be sure
that things will go right? If so, then I appreciate learning about a way
that the Dutch differ from the European countries with which I am familiar.
But I know that the average Dutch worker does not put in 80 hour weeks and
spend a week at a time away from home. Neither does the average American.
I guess I'm just surprised that you would either deny that changes can force
companies out of business or seem to have no empathy for people who work
that hard and will risk losing their business.
>And not the taxes. And I bet it's the same for those poor American truck
>drivers you so fondly keep mentioning.
>
They pay the same tax we do. I did find out that 40 thousand dollars per
year is high. The fuel tax is about $8000/year due to the average of
$0.38/gallon. The rest was the excise tax on the beer the truck was
carrying. But, changing the tax to say, $3.00 or so, would cost about
$63k/year. While not as astronomical as the first figure, its still rather
high.
>
>We are not complaining and we don't need any pitty. But I want to get it
>to your thick scull that we all have to work hard for the money.
Actually, different people in different countries in different jobs work
different amounts. One of the reasons I chose my job is that I actually get
paid for productivity and insights, not the hours I put in. So, I work a
less than my friends many of whom typically put in 60-70 hours a week at a
40 hour job. My working nights, weekends, and holidays was part of a big
push, not something I've done every week. But, there are a number of folks
who I know who do that.
>And seen what I've seen of running a small business I'd never consider
starting one myself.
>
Well, that's what pays my bills. My company has 1 employee: me, about $5000
dollars worth of capital. I run a very small business. Oh, BTW, here the
taxes are _higher_ when you are self-employed. :-)
Dan M.
