--- "Marvin Long, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Dean Forster wrote:
>
>
> I'll confess I've haven't read every writing and
> every speech. I am aware
> that a couple of the federalist papers argue that
> something like the 2nd
> amendment is unnecessary, given the already existing
> constitutional
> provisions made for the militia and armed forces.
> Antifederalists thought
> it was necessary, and probably wanted something more
> stringent. Without
> being able to read minds, I analyze the grammar to
> see where the
> compromise lies. (Some stuff I wrote extensively
> about this in a past
> thread may be in the Brin-L archives. I'm too lazy
> to go look it all up
> just now.)
>
So we both agree that the bulk of their work at the
time outside of the Constitution had a main thrust in
supporting personal firearms ownership? I'll take
your word that a few of the federalist papers
disagreed.
> > That is precisely my point. As I expressed
> before,
> > the body politic presently doesn't seem so much
> > concerned with the issues as with translating
> whatever
> > comes up as a problem for the week into
> legislation,
> > and having a general desire to not be bothered
> with
> > responsibility in their lives unless absolutely
> > necessary.
>
> Without addressing a specific issue, I can't make
> much sense out of that
> particular point. Unless it's just a blanket
> declaration that there are
> too many soft-headed [insert term for opposition
> here] trying to ruin the
> country, or some such.
>
Perhaps it's a failing of mine, but I like to step
back and look at the big picture to evaluate how
specifics effect it. I must ask you, do you dismiss
other people's arguments so unilaterally when they try
and put into words their thoughts on a particular
legal or social climate? I believe I deserve better,
and if there's something that i've said which you
don't believe follows the tenants of civilized debate,
let me have it.
> > When I see commercials trying to impress
> > upon people that they need to keep track of their
> > children, that's a big warning sign to me.
>
> That's ugly, but if I saw commercials telling people
> that it's their
> obligation to buy guns if they want to be protected
> from criminals and
> each other, then such a commercial would say to me
> that "Government by,
> of, and or the people has officially been declared a
> failure. You're on
> your own. It turns out that might makes right after
> all."
>
Are you making a general statement or intimating that
I would like to obligate everyone to buy guns? You
would be incorrect even if you were accusing the NRA
themselves. And if I saw commercials like what you
describe, I might very well suddenly feel that i'm not
on the productive side of the equation.
> > Starship troopers, anyone? Marvin, you're gonna
> get
> > beat on worse than I have. =)
>
> Not quite that severe--I'd allow everyone to vote,
> after all. But I've
> often thought that some kind of mandatory public
> service (not
> necessarily military) for young people wouldn't be
> such a bad idea. A
> rite of passage into adulthood and citizenship, say,
> and a way of making
> sure that essential public services have a ready
> supply of manpower. (I,
> being the generally introverted misanthrope that I
> am, would of course
> have complained endlessly about the injustice of
> such a requirement, but
> still.)
>
I think you may be on to something. But is it a
realistic goal in today's society?
> > I found it, "The militia of the United States
> > consists of all able-bodied males at least 17
> years of
> > age..." -Title 10, Section 311 of the U.S. Code.
> > (see http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/)
>
> Ok...but until they start drafting and drilling, it
> seems to me that such
> a militia doesn't really exist in any concrete
> sense. It's still the
> potential militia at best.
>
I can't think that the framers, along with the other
legislators of the time, had putting the entire
populace through military training in mind when they
wrote that code.
dean the less vehement
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