At 10:35 AM 6/21/01 +0300 Charlie Bell wrote:
>> At 09:29 PM 6/20/01 +0200 J. van Baardwijk wrote:
>> >If we were anti-American, we either wouldn't
>> >be on this list, or we'd be sending flaming responses to every
>> message in
>> >which US members sing the praise of the US.
>>
>> QED.
>>
>> JDG - That would be the second option, for those of you that missed it.
>
>Very clever, John.
>
>Have you not noticed that there are flaming response to posts in which JDG
>and Gayutam sing the praises of the US, because you're both so sickeningly
>self-righteous?
I have noticed that not a single post "singing the praises of the US" has
gone through without being ripped apart. And this has been true for
several years now on the list. One is hardly able to suggest something
good about the United States here without the snipers opening up. By
Jeroen's own standards, this qualifies as "Anti-Americanism."
>Marvin's last post was reasonable, reasoned and totally devoid of soap-box
>rhetoric and nasty sniping at anyone who dares disagree.
And it also had the advantage of basically arguing that America is nothing
special (more on that when I get to responding to his post tonight) I
certainly don't see how by *any* standard, Marvin's post could be
considered "singing the praises of the US."
Marvin simply told you all what you wanted to hear. Gautam and I,
however, have argued that America is essentially good, is important in its
goodness, and in at least my case, that America is great. All of these
points have proved anathema to several people on this list, and at no time
has making this point passed by the list without being strongly criticized
and rebutted.
>John also wrote this:
>> This list is certainly not *entirely* anti-American, not by a long shot. I
>just think that there are quite a few of them.
>
>No doubt you include me on that list. You're totally wrong. I like America,
>I like as many Americans as I do people from anywhere else.
Why do you keep equating non-anti-Americanism with liking individual
Americans? I'm sure that it was quite possible to like quite a few
Russians from the Soviet Union, just as its possible to like a great many
Chinese today. At the same time, you can virulently disagree with
everything that the Soviet Union and PRC stand for, and everything that
those countries have accomplished.
Here is the central difference that I see. I believe that the United
Kingdom, the Netherlands, the EU, etc. are essentially agents of good in
the world. I am happy that these countries/institutions are in the world,
and am happy for their contributions to human civilization. I recognize
that each of these have made mistakes, but recognize that the things that
they have done right far outweigh the things that they have done wrong.
For whatever reason, however, there are a great many people who simply
cannot insert "the United States" into the above paragraph, and that leaves
me completely bamboozled.
JDG.
__________________________________________________________
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ICQ #3527685
We are products of the same history, reaching from Jerusalem and
Athens to Warsaw and Washington. We share more than an alliance.
We share a civilization. - George W. Bush, Warsaw, 06/15/01
