At 21:03 17-8-01 -0400, Bob Zimmerman wrote:
> > (I would argue that this very quickly changed into a dictatorship but
> > lets not quibble about the differences between the US form of
> > government and that of Nazi Germany. Given past statements I would
> > guess you see them as essentially equivalent).
>
> AFAIK, I never called the US government a fascist dictatorship. I criticized
> the way in which you elect a president, but I've seen that same criticism
> coming for US citizens on this list.
>
>Frankly I cannot recall when you have made any statements about the US or its
>citizens that were not critical.
First, I don't see what's wrong with being critical. Actually, I consider
you calling me "critical" a compliment; it means I'm not considered a
person who blindly believes whatever someone tells him.
Second, saying someone is "critical" is one thing; accusing someone of
calling the US government "a fascist dictatorship" without proof is
something entirely different; IIRC, the English legal terms for unfounded
accusations are "libel" and "slander".
Both the US and The Netherlands have laws against that. Both countries hold
the belief that a person is innocent until proven guilty -- something you
seem to have forgotten.
So, again, please quote the message(s) in which I accused the US government
of being a fascist dictatorship.
>The Russians can behave
>horribly because of an historical fear of being invaded from western europe
>even though the US has never had an intention to do so. That is ok but it is
>not ok for the US to be fearful of anything.
Maybe the US never had any intention of invading Eastern Europe. Maybe the
US has no intention of invading North Korea. Fine. But try looking at the
issue from the other side of the border for a change, from the side that
sees the US as "the enemy". Your *enemy* builds up a vast military presence
near your border, but says he has no intention of attacking you. Would you
really blindly believe him?
If I would show up at your doorstep, banging on the door, with a very angry
look in my eyes and a shotgun in my hand, would you really blindly believe
that I have no intention whatsoever of shooting you?
> > The jews of Israel are not cut any slack because of the holocaust and
> > in fact it is apparently reasonable in your world view to accuse them
> > of the same crimes perpetrated on them by the Nazis.
>
> Did I accuse Israel of committing genocide on the Palestinians? I really
> don't remember saying that; I remember criticizing Israel for the way it
> treats Palestinians, but I don't recall accusations of genocide.
>
>I cannot of course quote the precise exchange because it was years ago but I
>do remember you explicitly linking the behavior of Israel to the holocaust.
I scanned my entire Brin-L archive for messages that had the words
"Jeroen", "Israel" and "Holocaust" in them. Only four messages had all
three words in them (including one message from Vera Horiuchi, containing
an edition of the Week in Review).
Your memory is partially correct: one message did indeed contain the phrase
"[..] what worries me most is that they seem to be allowed to do as they
please, just because they have suffered so much during the holocaust [..]"
Bad luck for you, though: it wasn't *me* who sent that message...
If I were you, I'd be more careful in the future when throwing accusations
around. If you start making a habit of accusing people of something without
providing evidence, sooner or later you're going to find yourself in court,
explaining your behaviour to a judge.
Jeroen
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