Completely for the sake of argument and with absolutely no offense intended
to other subscribers, by your comments I would assume that if someone on
the
list called a Black man a "fucking nigger" or a Jew a "fucking Kike" you
would have no qualms with that? You also would not condemn, criticize or
"ding" the poster?
Jon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Me:
No, obviously I would do all of those things. What is it about liberals
that you guys don't understand the difference between censure and censor? :
-) A person who did any of those things would deserve censure. That is,
we should condemn, criticize, and "ding" them. We should argue against
their views, hold them up to moral sanction, and hold them in contempt. If
someone who did any of those things was banished from the list, however, I
would very strongly object. That is what kill files and the delete key are
for. Censorship is completely different. Censorship (in particular, prior
restraint, which is what would be happening if you expelled someone from
the list) is something that can, in general, be justified only by the
requirements of national security. Last time I checked, no one on the list
with a clearance (is there anyone on the list with a clearance?) was
leaking stuff. Under any circumstances other than a clear and present
danger to vital social interests it's entirely inappropriate. I believe in
freedom of speech. That means that John is allowed to say what he believes
without being threatened with expulsion from the list. It means that
Jeroen is allowed to do the same.
I don't think Jeroen is a "Nazi", because the particular brand of
eliminationist anti-Semitism practiced by the Nazis is unique. It's
terminologically incorrect, apart from being impolite. I further don't
think that John should have made Nazi comparisons - precisely because of
that fact. Finally, I would say that he should not have "shouted." But
that is (since he's Catholic, I'll use the term) a venial sin. I think I
got that right. Penny ante stuff. _But_ - to call in an absentee
list-owner because you are unable to hold your own in an argument is
pathetic. To try and intimidate a listmember into silence is vile. There
is no defense and no justification for those actions.
Freedom of speech means that sometimes you have to listen to things that
make you uncomfortable. If someone used repeated obscenities on the list
then, after repeated warnings, I might ascent to their removal from the
list, if and only if I felt - upon carefully reviewing their postings -
that the usage of obscenities contributed absolutely nothing to discussion
on the list. Even then I would strongly prefer that people used their
killfiles and it would take a lot of convincing to get me to back down from
that position.
I'll go back to my speech code analogy. You cannot punish _speech_ through
banishment. Some colleges in the United States punish the expression of
racist views (well, what they deem to be racist views) with expulsion.
They are wrong. I refused on principle to attend any institution that had
such a code, and I would refuse on principle to participate in an internet
discussion list that had such rules.
You can disagree with someone. You can argue with them. You can certainly
ignore them. Those are social sanctions. But banishment from the list is
not that. It is punishment from that group (the list-owners) which is the
closest thing this list has to an authority. A social sanction would be
something where list members decided - on their own - to ignore someone, or
criticize them. That is, it seems to me, fully within the rights of
everyone on the list. But banishment is the opposite of a social sanction.
It is the (forcible) removal of a person from the company of the list. As
a punishment for the expression of an opinion it is unacceptable. It is
immoral. It is a violation of the principles of the list. And it is a
violation of the paramount value of freedom of speech and discussion.
Everyone involved with the making of that threat should be ashamed of
themselves, and so should anyone who supports it.
Anyone want to threaten _me_ with expulsion from the list for saying that?
Gautam
