At 05:55 PM 2/2/02 +0100 J. van Baardwijk wrote:
>> > So, Jeroen, do you still deny that there is a
>> > Community Consensus that the actions taken were
>> > out-of-line?
>> >
>> > Moreover, Jeroen, do you still stand by your casting
>> > of shame on all Members of the List who have stated
>> > that the actions recently taken were inappropriate?
>> >
>>
>><shout>
>>
>>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG
>>GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>!!!!!
>>
>></SHOUT>
>
>I second that opinion. Let it rest, John.
You would. Of course, as a party to this dispuite, it is no more
appropriate for you to second that opinion as it would be for me to second
an opinion calling upon you to answer my questions. You'll note that I
tried to inject a bit of humour into this, because Brett was trying to
bring some civility to this discussion.
I can't say that it is surprising though, Jeroen. You will do almost
anything to avoid having to apologize, admit that you were wrong, or take
responsibility for your behaviour. Sure. you've apologized once or twice
- but that sort of thing has been distinctly missing in some very important
situations, like the current one.
Look Jeroen, you do many good and wonderful things for Brin-L - but you
have engaged in passive-agressive behaviour that has constantly
precipitated community crises. When you abused Charlie's unsubscription
in order to bludgeon me, we let you off the hook. When you threatened
Zimmy with unsubscription and he nearly left, we let you off the hook.
Now, you have consented to the implication that I am one step away from
being unsubscribed to the List. Additionally, you have made very ill-timed
jokes about keeping a record of List-Member behaviour. Moreover, when the
entirety of the active List Community has protested that implication, you
abused your position of List-Owner and chastised the entire Community -
even though it is the Community that sets the Community Standards, not the
List-Owner. In none of these cases have you shown an understanding that
what you have done is wrong, hurtful, and detrimental to the List. Most
importantly, until you show this understanding, I can only conclude that it
is only a matter of time before you pull a similar stunt again. After
all, how can we expect you to correct something when you won't even admit
that there is a problem?
Jeroen, just because you do many good and wonderful things for the
Community, I am no longer going to stand idly by while your
passive-aggressive behaviour keeps precipitating Crises that result in the
successive disintegration of this Community. Ordinarily, I would just
ignore someone like you - but you, like myself, are just to prolific to be
ignored. Thus, I do do my best to take the advice of the Community
regarding appropriate conduct. For example, I was definitely expecting an
off-list message in short order telling me that it was time to "call the
dogs off" in the Israel discussion.
On some occasions, however, I do have to stick with my principles, which is
why in this case I am going to have to disagree with the recommendation of
Brett and Doug. Jeroen, you do have to answer the questions - they are
hardly loaded or trick questions. Rather it is a simple matter of you
taking responsibility for your actions in the Community. You have shamed
every one of us for disagreeing with you - and as we form this
Constitution, I think that it is vitally important to know where you stand
on such things. We can hardly write a Constitution when the Community is
thinking that it will be applied one way to a situation like this and you
are thinking that it will be applied in another way entirely.
If you stand by everything that you have previously written, then this
whole Constitution discussion is simply nothing more than everyone talking
completely past each other, since you and everyone else have completely
different understandings. On the other hand, if there truly is the
agreement that people are imagining then you will have no problem answering
the two questions, just as any reasonable person has no problem saying
"Palestinian terrorists are not showing 'good will' towards Israelis."
So, the ultimate question here is are all members of this Community willing
to be reasonable to make this Community a better place? I personally
would like to find out - and if you do decide to show yourself to be
reasonable, speaking at least for myself, I would certainly have a much
higher opinion of you - and I think that a lot of other people here, while
maybe disagreeing with some or most of what I wrote above, would agree with
me on that last point as well.
John D. Giorgis
I Miss You Maru
__________________________________________________________
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ICQ #3527685
"Our campaign against international terrorism does not represent some
sort of 'clash of civilizations.' Instead, it is a clash between
civilization and those who would destroy it." -Amb. Richard N. Haass
