>At 05:55 PM 2/2/02 +0100 J. van Baardwijk wrote: > >> > So, Jeroen, do you still deny that there is a > >> > Community Consensus that the actions taken were > >> > out-of-line? > >> > > >> > Moreover, Jeroen, do you still stand by your casting > >> > of shame on all Members of the List who have stated > >> > that the actions recently taken were inappropriate? > >> > > >> > >><shout> > >> > >>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGG > GGGG > >>GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > !!!! > >>!!!!! > >> > >></SHOUT> > > > >I second that opinion. Let it rest, John.
At 12:16 PM 2/2/02, John D. Giorgis wrote: >You would. Of course, as a party to this dispuite, it is no more >appropriate for you to second that opinion as it would be for me to second >an opinion calling upon you to answer my questions. I've been thinking exactly the same thing for several days now. >You'll note that I >tried to inject a bit of humour into this, because Brett was trying to >bring some civility to this discussion. > >I can't say that it is surprising though, Jeroen. You will do almost >anything to avoid having to apologize, admit that you were wrong, or take >responsibility for your behaviour. Sure. you've apologized once or twice >- but that sort of thing has been distinctly missing in some very important >situations, like the current one. I've been thinking exactly the same thing for several weeks now. >Look Jeroen, you do many good and wonderful things for Brin-L - but you >have engaged in passive-agressive behaviour that has constantly >precipitated community crises. When you abused Charlie's unsubscription >in order to bludgeon me, we let you off the hook. When you threatened >Zimmy with unsubscription and he nearly left, we let you off the hook. >Now, you have consented to the implication that I am one step away from >being unsubscribed to the List. Additionally, you have made very ill-timed >jokes about keeping a record of List-Member behaviour. Moreover, when the >entirety of the active List Community has protested that implication, you >abused your position of List-Owner and chastised the entire Community - >even though it is the Community that sets the Community Standards, not the >List-Owner. In none of these cases have you shown an understanding that >what you have done is wrong, hurtful, and detrimental to the List. Most >importantly, until you show this understanding, I can only conclude that it >is only a matter of time before you pull a similar stunt again. After >all, how can we expect you to correct something when you won't even admit >that there is a problem? I've been thinking exactly the same thing for several months now. >Jeroen, just because you do many good and wonderful things for the >Community, I am no longer going to stand idly by while your >passive-aggressive behaviour keeps precipitating Crises that result in the >successive disintegration of this Community. Ordinarily, I would just >ignore someone like you - but you, like myself, are just to prolific to be >ignored. Thus, I do do my best to take the advice of the Community >regarding appropriate conduct. For example, I was definitely expecting an >off-list message in short order telling me that it was time to "call the >dogs off" in the Israel discussion. > >On some occasions, however, I do have to stick with my principles, which is >why in this case I am going to have to disagree with the recommendation of >Brett and Doug. Jeroen, you do have to answer the questions - they are >hardly loaded or trick questions. Rather it is a simple matter of you >taking responsibility for your actions in the Community. You have shamed >every one of us for disagreeing with you - and as we form this >Constitution, I think that it is vitally important to know where you stand >on such things. We can hardly write a Constitution when the Community is >thinking that it will be applied one way to a situation like this and you >are thinking that it will be applied in another way entirely. > >If you stand by everything that you have previously written, then this >whole Constitution discussion is simply nothing more than everyone talking >completely past each other, since you and everyone else have completely >different understandings. On the other hand, if there truly is the >agreement that people are imagining then you will have no problem answering >the two questions, just as any reasonable person has no problem saying >"Palestinian terrorists are not showing 'good will' towards Israelis." > >So, the ultimate question here is are all members of this Community willing >to be reasonable to make this Community a better place? I personally >would like to find out - and if you do decide to show yourself to be >reasonable, speaking at least for myself, I would certainly have a much >higher opinion of you - and I think that a lot of other people here, while >maybe disagreeing with some or most of what I wrote above, would agree with >me on that last point as well. What he said. And, Jereon, before you say anything about my "extensive quoting": I quoted John's entire message because I wanted you to read it again and take it to heart. In fact, IMO the prudent thing for you to do would be to assume a lower profile on the list until this blows over. Which will probably happen sooner the less you egg it on. If this gets me "points" on your alleged "insult" table, or even gets me banned from the list, so be it. I think it needed to be said. As I said above, I have been thinking it for several days now�ever since the "warning" or whatever to John�and been trying to figure out how to say it. I have started several messages to the list which I then deleted unsent because I could not figure out how to say what I wanted to say without offending someone unnecessarily. So, how about let's all agreeing to disagree (it does strike me as odd that this is the only list I am on where the discussions end up driving off long-time active members of the list, while on other lists we discuss equally contentious issues�gun control as well as the Middle East�but somehow we all remain reasonable and keep talking to each other) on the Israel/Palestinian issue (whether we continue to discuss it or not), repeat "IAAMOAC" 100 times�or 1000 times or 10000 times or however many it takes to really believe it�and go back to conversing as friends . . . What say ye all? -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam� God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)
