----- Original Message -----
From: "Baardwijk, J. van DTO/SLWPD/RZO/BOZO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:43 AM
Subject: RE: Scouted: Commentary: Why Europe Sides Against the Jews / tim
e.com



> What, someone was still taking me seriously? Jeez, I thought that all the
> right-winged anti-European pro-Israel Americans on this list had long ago
> stopped taking me seriously and considered me some lunatic who is totally
> out of touch with reality and living in a paranoid fantasy world...   :-(

Well, compiling a website of all the times that someone hurt's one's
feelings is not a behavior that is helpful to one's mental health.  We all
need to practice behaviors that help us maintain good mental health, just as
we need to eat properly and exercise in order to maintain good physical
health. In doing this, I have developed certain habits that furnish as
reality checks.

Among them are watching for patterns in people's responses to me.  Clearly,
I don't need to have everyone agree with me.  But, I do have red flags
concerning patterns of responses.  An example of my doing this is the
"lurkers afraid of flames" thread.  When I feel alienation, I have friends I
can email asking for reality checks.  I do not pick them because they agreed
with me in the discussion.

FWIW, I haven't always had this bag of tricks for a reality check.  Being
married to a psychotherapist for about 18 years (I've been married longer,
but my wife received her masters about 18 years ago) has certainly helped in
this.

As I mentioned before, IMHO it would be a very good thing for you to drop
the website of hurt feelings as an effort and concentrate on other things.
For example,

1) Finding ways you can express sympathy for valid strong feelings of those
you debate instead denying them. Denying the effects of the Holocaust on the
lives of Jewish people who are alive today (including those on the list)
harms both you and your argument.  It harms you because it cuts you off from
the humanity of others.  It hurts your argument because it adds credence to
the concept that its not just the policies of Israel that you are opposed
to,  but you have antagonism towards Jews. If, on the other hand, you showed
honest sympathy to those still suffering as a result of the Holocaust, then
you would have added credence to the argument that you have no ill feelings
towards Jews.

2) Gracefully retreat from positions that prove to be in error.  An example
of this is your claim that you never read a post you quoted and that I was
unfair when I assumed you have.  It may be a momentary unpleasantness, but
acknowledging mistakes is good for both oneself and one's credibility.

3) Research the topic that is discussed.  Instead of claiming that your
opponents must prove their points to you beyond a reasonable doubt (with you
as both judge and jury), you could look for support from noted historians
and/or new data.  An example of this is when Gautam quoted an Oxford
historian on the collaboration of Europe in the genocide of the Nazis.  Is
there a good American historian that argues that the occupied countries
showed strong resistance?  Are there data that indicate that a significant
fraction (say 20%) of the population of the Netherlands was involved in
trying to protect the Jews?

4) Watch for how your arguments play in the community.  In particular, you
can see the responses to your "threat" to put people in you "these bad
people hurt my feelings" website. No one has written in support of this.
The tone of the jokes about it should indicate to you that it is not taken
very seriously.  Making threats that are not taken seriously is usually a
bad thing.

Indeed, who is the intended audience for this webpage?  It seems to me that
you are talking about a hypothetical group of reasonable individuals that
will see how terrible the people who differ with you are.  It is not healthy
to count on hypothetical people that support you when you are not getting on
list support from the other posters.

5) Search for truth instead of proof that you are always right.  Part of
this should be the use of techniques of logic (like reversing arguments)
instead of semantic hair splitting (like detailed arguments on the critical
importance of the difference between warn and threaten).  I know that I
argue long and hard for a given position, but others on this list have
caused me to reevaluate my positions.  Indeed, IMHO, I've developed deeper
and more nuanced understandings of a number of topics through discussions
with people...even when I argued tooth and nail during a thread.

6) Develop friendships with those who's ideas you differ with severely.  An
example of this for me offlist are my numerous friendships with
fundamentalists.

Anyways these are just a bunch of my thoughts.  They are  given with nothing
but good will towards you.

Dan M.




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