Deborah Harrell wrote <<I snipped parts where we agreed (or mostly so ;) ).>>
Likewise. :-) <<[I] Very Black And White - yes...but it is not so about characters - for example Eddie and "Wet Nurse" [D] Um, I don't remember those particulars, but are they perhaps Dark Gray? :)>> [I]Eddie is Dagni's brother - White, but no as strong as Dagni or others from Galt's valley (sp). "Wet Nurse" was assigned to Rirden to keep him in line, so Dark Gray is right, I think, but he changed sides - so it's Pale Gray ? [D] <<And ...the 'heroine' seems to be unable to have genuine friendships with other women, but must derive 'all' her self-worth from her relationships with men. >> [I] The idea is your self-worth from yourself. <SHRUG> [D] Do any of her women characters have such relationships - or good mother-daughter, sister-sister ones if not friendship?>> [I] I think there are sort of woman friends in "We the Living" - not too much attention is given to this though. [D] Or do you think that I'm overstating the above re: 'measures herself against men' idea? (Possible, b/c I took quite a dislike to the main character! and a big "duh!" there, huh?) [I] I don't know :-( Romans and essays are pretty much mixed in my head. The idea is - *not* measuring yourself against *anybody*. Does it comes thrue this way in "Atlas Shrugged"? I am not sure. I like Dagni and Eddie and Francisco and the guy with un-pronounceable name most of the time, I like Rirden some of the time, I don't like John Galt at all. [D] <<4] Lack of community - at least to me, those who lived in the secret valley were kind of traveling in the same direction, but not as a true group/team.>> [I] They worked together, their doings benefited each other, what's more? Kolhoz? [D] Could you define that last word? TIA :) To me, the valley people were not 'connected,' although they did work together. [I] My apologies :-( Kolhoz - managed by collective - this is Russian word for farm managed like that factory that John Galt left. I wish she'd give valley more space in her book. It shows that "selfishness" is not equal "on somebody else's account". To me they *are* connected - but this relative. <VBG> - Ayn Rand's the most hated word. [D] <<5] Presumption - arrogance is expected in anyone who excels, but to dismiss all who do not hold your views as weak-minded or stupid is excessive.>> [I] As any other "true believer" in "true religion". [D] Well, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, because while I'm a believer (and arrogant!) I am not presumptuous (sp?); I *have* changed my mind/ideas if they are shown to be incorrect, and I have learned to keep an open mind about some things that I nevertheless believe quite passionately. And I know many others who think/believe similarly.>> [I] I, probably, should have written "true fanatic" <G> [D] <<6] Nature as that-which-must-be-conquered --the world has no value in itself, only for what Man can do with it. There was *no* sense of wonder, except for the creations of Man.>> [I] But of course - Man's life is highest value. <G> [D]<SssfFFT! SSsssSSS! ack*#@> My cats strongly disagree! ;) [I] So is my! :-) [D] << (I'll chalk up her ignorance of the environment's importance to the era in which she grew up - but that's perhaps overly generous.)>> [I] According to some later essays by her and by her followers on this topic the idea is *of course* to build houses/roads are more important than keeping nature intact, but you have to think ahead also. As far as I understood the main problem are that environmentalists are going hand in hand with political left - and Ayn Rand followers are anything but.>> [D]<shrug> I know some survivalists who are also environmentalists - and they'd *not* accept being called lefties! :) [I] So do I, but too often I hear about "progressive environmentalism - that deals also with social issues" [I]My recommendation - Kay Nolte Smith (inspite her being "excommunicated" <g>) [D] Ah, so there is Rand's way or the highway? I didn't realize that it really is a religious-type movement. [I] I think so. Of course there are, probably, Objectivists that would not agree. "excommunication" is the word that seams right to *me*. [D] <<She-Who-Has-No-Opinions Maru ;)>> [I]Ilana, who has no idea who Maru is. [D]Read Rob's excellent post on that - but, among other things, it's what Japanese ships are named (remember the Kobayashi Maru from Star Trek - Wrath of Khan?); and you can add a comment on your post or the subject or yourself by turning it into a ship name. [The BrinL spin-off Culture list uses ship designations like GSV, ROU, and VFP for similar purposes. <ducks and takes cover ;D >]>> [I] Thanx <G> [D] And now I see that my objections to the philosophy/themes I gathered from _Atlas Shrugged_ can really be boiled down to two: 1) Lack of empathy for 'otherness' (on-topic! ha! ;}) 2) Profound isolation (which actually intersects #1) Debbi GSV Verbosity ;) [I] Which is why your average Objectivist is sociopath. (although we *are* told some horror stories about people who "took the books too literally" - like that one who detached himself from all his friends, because main character of "Fountainhead" didn't have any or other who dyed (sp) his hair orange and went to study architecture (same book).) Ilana _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
