On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:42:05PM -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote: > Because of that we are forced to make choices. Pretending otherwise > is absurd, and arrogant fools can make all the claims of bigotry they > want (transferrence, perhaps?) but it doesn't make it any less true.
And cowardly patriots can claim that they are "forced" to make a choice to violate human rights because they are afraid for their own lives. But, of course, they are only "forced" to make that choice by their cowardice. > (I suppose Erik will want us to invade Britain next). I suppose Gautam will think that the British government would be so unjust, now or in the future, as to hold people captured in another country prisoner without access to a barrister nor any chance at a fair trial? > _In fact_ we have a problem. We have a group of people who are > immensely motivated to kill Americans and who have attempted to do so > in the past. No, it is NOT a fact that the prisoners have attempted to kill Americans. That is what a TRIAL is for, to determine the facts. Innocent until proven guilty, Gautam. Innocent until proven guilty. > Our system of justice was not created with people like that in mind. "people like that" Has fear driven out all compassion and sense of justice? Everyone not sufficiently like oneself is lumped into the category of sub-human "people like that"? > Treating terrorists captured on the field of battle in Afghanistan > like bank robbers in the US There you go again. Fascist dictators may assume people are guilty without a trial. Liberal democracies should be better than that. > The reason that we treat them differently is that they are, in fact, > different. And again. No, it is NOT a fact. That is for a trial to determine. > Might some of them be unjustly imprisoned? Yes, they might well > be. Some of them almost certainly are. We undoubtedly killed some > innocent people in Afghanistan. That didn't mean the war was not > worth fighting. That was an injustice greater than holding people > in Guantanamo Bay for a while. But it didn't stop us from doing the > necessary thing. Gautam, perhaps hatred and fear has clouded your mind here. This is not an apt comparison. The innocent people killed in Afghanistan cannot be brought back to life. But people being held prisoner CAN BE RELEASED. Holding people prisoner without a trial is NOT the "necessary thing". that we are "forced" to do. "For God's sake, admit" that there is a choice and you are not "forced" to violate human rights, but rather do it out of irrational hatred and fear. > If we let these people go, they will go back to killing Americans. > If we try them in a fully-fledged public trial, we will destroy our > ability to protect ourselves from their compatriots and distort our > own justice system. Your track record of predictions is not so good. I hope there is a chance to prove that you are wrong again on one of these two. > Children close their eyes on the world. Adults have to live with > their eyes open. Cowards and bigots take away the rights of others in order to protect their own skins. Self-confident adults extend fair treatment to everyone they encounter and accept the risks that freedom entails in order to obtain the great benefits of a liberal society. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
