----- Original Message ----- From: "Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:27 AM Subject: Re: Killings, evil and pictures to assure accountabillity L3
> > >It seems to me that you differ with this idea. Bad is bad, wrong is wrong, > >and there is no worse. > > > > > Indeed, bad is bad and wrong is wrong. To me the *only* difference is > the magnitude and the scale. Maybe that's what's offensive, I don't know. And why isn't that critically important? Human beings fall short of perfection. There is a tremendous difference between systematically killing millions every year and having a small number of complex fatal instances per year. To stop the first, all one has to do is not have a government that is committed to evil. To stop the second is a much harder task. > >The difficulty with this is that it lumps all non perfect things together. > >I can't see the validity of this. Let me give a personal example. My > >Zambian daughter was stopped with two of her friends for DWB (driving while > >black) in the Woodlands. It followed the typical DWB pattern, cop car is > >beside a car, sees that black people are in it, slows down and follows the > >car for a while and then pulls it over. They were asked why they were in > >the Woodlands (which has very few blacks). After 10 minutes, they were > >given a verbal warning for one of two license plate lights being out, and > >were allowed to go on their way. > > > >I realize that there is racism in the police up here. I realize that the > >association of blacks with criminals results in unarmed black and Hispanic > >kids being shot from time to time. One or two die in an average year this > >way. It is wrong, and I feel we need to address this. > > > >Yet, this is nothing like what I would feel if I knew Neli was in Sudan. > >There, there is a deliberate policy, given a wink and a nod by the UN, to > >commit genocide against the black majority by the Arab minority that runs > >the country. If she were there, there would be a good chance that she > >would be killed. In Houston, there is a small chance; its still too big > >mind you, but it is small. > > > > > Granted. I understand your point of view. But lets pull this example a > little further down. Here it is unthinkable that black people regularly > would be pulled of the street without due cause, let alone that fearing > for their lives or getting shot for being different is considered a > normal hazard of life and to me it is rather unthinkable, immoral > actually. Hmm, have you looked at the numbers. I looked at the numbers for the Netherlands and found that 55% of the prison population is foreign born. I'm guessing that Germans aren't in prison at that much higher of a rate the Dutch. I couldn't get the numbers by country of origin; but I'm guessing that Turks, then blacks, and then East European have the highest rate of people in prison, in that order. As it is; the probability of a foreign national being in jail is >10x what is for a Dutch national. An interesting website for information on this is: www.wz-berlin.de/zkd/poem/pdf/koopmans_good_intentions.pdf Let me quote this report: <quote> Before drawing the conclusion that these problems are only to be associated with minorities, it should be pointed out that the native Dutch population is not always as tolerant and open to other cultures as it would like to think. This is already evident from the 'black school' phenomenon, which is not the result of immigrants wanting their children to attend schools with other immigrants. On the contrary, black schools exist because native Dutch parents prefer to send their children to white schools, even when these are a bit farther away and/or more expensive. Another poignant example is offered by the experimental research on discrimination in the job market as conducted by the International Labour Organisation (see Thr�nhardt, 2000. p p. 176-178). One of its findings was that Dutch employers often discriminate in job applications - not openly but quite effectively. This was found to happen far less often in Germany. It has been said before but it cannot be stressed enough: Dutch tolerance is only skin-deep. Below the surface there is often indifference and, in some cases, racism. The above data suggest a strong degree of segregation along ethnic lines in the Netherlands, not of the friendly 'living apart together' type but rather of a kind that has extremely negative effects on both immigrants and the native population. The comparison with Germany is particularly painful because Germany offers anything but an example of progressive integration policy-making. On the contrary, until a few years ago, a German integration policy was virtually non-existent. In the Netherlands, on the other hand, the government has actively carried out an integration policy since the early 1980s. Comparing the Netherlands with Germany allows for only one conclusion: Dutch policy has failed miserably. In fact, it looks like the country would have been better off without it. <end quote> Let me also ask you? How do you know what life is like for Turkish residents. Do you regularly hang with Turks; talk with them about this? Do you know Turkish/Dutch couples that you associate with...outside of business transactions. How about black-white Dutch couples? Or Jewish couples, or Jewish/Christian couples? >When it happens here it is such a rare event that the whole > country stands on it's head. You are actually stating that you know for a fact that the rate of Turks being pulled over for very minor traffic violations is no more than Dutch? >So compared to that attitude would you say > you still hold the moral high ground over Sudan? Is my moral high ground > over the US higher or lower then your's over Sudan? The difference still > is only one of magnitude and position, on the scale of horror. One is > bad, the other is worse, but that doesn't excuse one in light of the > other. And that seems to me what some very vocal US citizens regularly > tend to do when confronted with one thing in light of another worse one. > I hold the view that given the right set of circumstances Houston > probably could turn into Sudan. I understand you hold that view. But, where are the data that support it? With all due respect, I think one of the ways we differ is that I tend to look to data more than you do; while you develop thought experiments. The reason I prefer data over thought experiments is that one can check one's own thinking with data better than one can check it with a thought experiment...which usually turns out just as expected. :-) Lets look at the particulars. The US has had a 200+ year tradition of representative government. Blacks have had full voting rights in Houston in reality, instead of just in principal, for almost 40 years. For most of the last 20 years, either the mayor or the police chief was black. The mayoral election before last, there was not a white European candidate. The black Democratic candidate and the Hispanic Republican candidate vied for the swing vote: which was the white vote. Non-Hispanic whites are right around 50% of the population of Texas this year. They will be the biggest minority shortly...if they are not already. In Houston, they are already the largest minority; not the majority. Given this, and given the continuation of the right to vote; why in the world would blacks and Hispanics vote for a government that would commit genocide against them? Compare that to Sudan; which has no tradition of representative government. War has long been a part of politics there. In the US, this hasn't happened since the 1860s. The odds on a rejection of multiculturalism that causes a second civil war in the US are extremely low. Heck, contrast this to Europe. In the Netherlands, the anti-immigration party obtained a good percentage of the vote. IIRC, they fell prey to internal strife, not a general rejection of their principals. Look at Europe on the whole. The big test of multiculturalism for the EU will be the admission of Turkey to the EU. My reading of the situation is that Turkey has two chances: slim and none, with slim about to walk out the door. I'm stopping this response here because a major difference between the questions we are asking became apparent to me. I will cover that in another post. Dan M. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
