There is no grey area on this. You can not start a stall count until the person has picked up the disc and established a pivot. In the appendix of the rules there is a section for EUC, EUCC,WUGC,WUCC tournaments, where the rules differ on this and there is a delay of the game count. Lewis
----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Russell Parr" To: "Noble, Kevin (SELEX) (UK)" , [email protected] Subject: Re: [BD] Rules questions Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 15:19:04 +0100 > On point 1, I think that there is an exception (and a grey > area) that allows for the stall count to be commenced if a > player is deliberately taking their time to establish the > pivot in order to give their team an unfair advantage > (i.e. chasing into position following a huck and catch). I > guess that comes down to the the player on disc and their > marker both being sensible about what constitutes > deliberately taking too long. > > On 5/22/07, Noble, Kevin (SELEX) (UK) > wrote: > > > > > > > Tails, > > > > 2. Good. There were definitely times at MT2 where a > > pick was called and possession was lost after several > > passes but teams insisted in declining the call. > > > > 1. It makes sense as the general intention of the > > stalling rule, but this specific marker violation seems > > to contradict your point. The rules below would suggest > > that a pivot point is established once returning from > > out of bounds. He is still in-bounds but he still needs > to put the disc into play (see 9.1) and therefore is yet > > to establish a pivot foot. > > Maybe. I can't see a rule where it says a pivot foot is > > established on crossing the line. > > > > 12.3.1. If momentum causes a player to touch an > > out-of-bounds area after catching the disc in-bounds, > > the player is considered inbounds. That players puts the > > disc into play at the spot on the Field of Play closest > to where they first crossed the Perimeter Line. > > > 9.1. Putting the disc into play means that the offensive > > player in possession of the disc establishes a pivot > > point (typically their foot) at the point on the Field > of Play as specified. > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Kevin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy > > Taylor Sent: 22 May 2007 13:15 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: [BD] Rules questions > > > > *** WARNING *** > > > > This mail has originated outside your organization, > > either from an external partner or the Global Internet. > > Keep this in mind if you answer this message. > > > > My take on these rules: > > > > 1. The pivot point has been established, as it is where > > the receiving player crossed the line. Just because the > > player is not there, does not stop that being the pivot > > point. It is therefore legal to stall. I think the point > of that rule is that if someone is running, catches the > > disc, and continues running a bit (while slowing down as > > fast as possible of course), if you are 3m behind him > > when he catches it: you can't stop still and start > stalling him, when he has now moved to 4m away. > > > 2. The point of the continuation rule is specifically > > for that pass. If someone calls pick, and then the disc > > is thrown and turned over, then it is not a turnover, > > and possession reverts to the thrower, everything resets > to when the pick was called. So if pick is called while > > the disc is in the air, then the continuation rule > > applies for that pass. If the player decides to throw it > > again, then the pick was called before that throw, so > that throw doesn't matter. So the disc would go back to > > the original thrower in that case. > > > > > > Hope my interpretations are both correct and > understandable. > > > Tails > > > > > > >From: "Noble, Kevin (SELEX) (UK)" > > >To: > > >Subject: [BD] Rules questions > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:32:42 +0100 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Before my questions, I thought MT2 was a great venue > and tournament all > > > >round. Good pitches, good showers, good catering, good > > weather etc... >I'm glad, though, that I didn't have > three games back to back on Sunday > > > >(like positions 25 to 28). I'm surprised there haven't > > been any >complaints about that. I guess it means an > earlier finish and a chance > > > >to watch the final. > > > > > > > > > > > >Anyway, to my rules questions: > > > > > >Not sure if the conclusions I have drawn are correct. > > >(copy of rules here) > > > >http://www.ukultimate.com/system/files/WFDF+Ultimate+Rule > > s+2007.pdf > > > > > > >1) Violation > > >Under the following rules, if a player's momentum > > carries him off the >pitch after a catch, it is a > violation to start stalling before a pivot > > > >foot is established and the defender therefore cannot > > start the count >before the player is back on the pitch. > > > > > > > > >17.3. Marker Violations > > >17.3.1. Marking violations include the following: > > > > > >17.3.1.4.3. starts the stall count before the Offensive > > player >establishes both possession of the disc and a > > pivot point > > > > > > > > > >2) Continuation/pick > > >What happens if a pick is called when the disc is in > > the air and the >catch is completed but the catcher then > throws the disc into the ground > > > >like the muppet that he is? Even though the team that > > called the >violation eventually gained possession > > (18.3), play only continues >until possession is > > established (18.1). So the pass into the ground > >occurred after play had stopped and therefore has no > > relevance to the >call? My main question here is > > whether "play continues until >possession has been > > established" implies that play stops once >possession > has been established. Importantly, the team that called > the > > > >violation did not gain possession "as a result of the > > pass" but as a >result of the pass after that. I guess > > the call could be declined >(18.5) as the call did not > > affect the catchers ability to throw. >However, it > > probably did affect a runner who stopped once possession > >was gained who might have otherwise caught the rubbish > pass. So is the > > > >answer catch the throw and gain possession but ignore > > what happens >after that? Disc goes back to thrower > > anyway? > > > > > > >18. Continuation Rule > > >18.1. If a foul or violation occurs when the disc is in > > the air or >while the thrower was in the act of throwing > > , play continues until >possession has been established. > > >18.2. If the foul or violation was called against the > > thrower (e.g. >travel > > >or offensive foul by the thrower), and the thrower > > attempts a pass >after the call, play continues until > > possession has been established. >18.3. If the team that > > called the foul or violation gains or retains > >possession as a result of the pass, play shall continue > > unhalted. >Players recognizing this should call "Play > > on" immediately to indicate >that this rule has been > > invoked. >18.4. If the team that called the foul or > > violation does not gain or >retain possession as a > > result of the pass, play shall be stopped and >the disc > > will be returned to the thrower for a check. >18.5. If > the team that called the foul or violation believes that > > play >has not been affected by the foul or violation, > they should decline the > > > >foul or violation, make up any positional disadvantage > > caused by the >foul or violation, and restart play with > > a check. > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Kevin > > >BASIC > > > > > >SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited Registered > > Office: Sigma >House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, > > Essex >SS14 3EL > > >A company registered in England & Wales. 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