Hey Nimrod,

Well I think most of your concerns are related to patent trolls. I doubt 
the Cake foundation will be able to defend it's users from those, but I 
also doubt that they'll sue small companies where no big money is to be 
made. An excellent read on this topic is Paul Grahams: "Are Software 
Patents Evil?" <http://paulgraham.com/softwarepatents.html>. I'll leave 
it to the project manager (gwoo) or PhpNut_ to answer your foundation 
specific questions, but knowing the current team I can pretty much 
promise you none of us would try to file patents on CakePHP technology 
just to sue the CakePHP users later on. It would be a very sad day for 
the entire open source movement if something like this would ever happen ...

-- Felix Geisendörfer aka the_undefined
--------------------------
http://www.thinkingphp.org
http://www.fg-webdesign.de


Nimrod A. Abing wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am currently doing a project for a small software firm. I want to
> use CakePHP as my framework but I ran into some issues with the owner
> of the project. Before I start with the details, I would like to say
> offhand that I need some serious advice regarding this issue. So it
> would be best if my questions were answered someone on the CakePHP
> team with knowledge and understanding of how the U.S. legal and patent
> system works.
>
> Please note that these are issues raised by my employer and we differ
> slightly in our approach and opinions when it comes to using software
> developed out in the open. Let's just say that he has been around long
> enough to know that frivolous lawsuits can arise from the smallest
> infractions and that he has been through enough lawsuits to make
> himself wary.
>
> His concerns actually got me into thinking "What if..." as well. The
> USPTO is inundated with trivial patents and patent filings. I am wary
> as well that some nutjob out there with some cash, a patent portfolio,
> and a website will do something similar to what Eolas did to
> Microsoft.
>
> Okay here are his concerns as I have come to understand them:
>
> * Cake Software Foundation, why is it registered in Nevada? None of
> the founding members seem to be from or living in Nevada. As far as he
> is concerned, Nevada registered corps are usually doing something
> shady or want to be "unreachable" to a certain extent.
>
> * Submarine patents. What's to prevent someone, I presume another corp
> registered in Nevada, from suing or harassing CakePHP users with a
> lawsuit. He pictures it this way... CakePHP becomes so widespread,
> then some bright spark files for a patent for something that is
> crucial to CakePHP and then sues or harasses CakePHP users. In the
> extreme case, and I really hope this does not happen, one of the core
> CakePHP developers sets up what he calls a "shy" or "sideline" company
> and then files for patents and then sues or harasses CakePHP users.
>
> * Cake Software Foundation, again. To what extent is the foundation's
> responsibilities to users of CakePHP with regards to legal actions.
> Will the foundation help to defend users being harassed or sued by a
> holder of a submarine patent? An attack on a CakePHP user is an attack
> on CakePHP itself. It sets a precedent if the attack becomes
> successful and paves the way for attacks on other CakePHP users.
>
> * CSL and CCSL. This one is my concern. I don't know if he has read
> these documents yet.
>
>  - How strict is the foundation in auditing and accepting contributions?
>  - What consists a "contribution" in this case? Patches submitted
> through Trac? Whole tracts of code spanning several files?
>  - In either case, are contributions being audited properly to ensure
> that they contain "clean IP"?
>  - Is the CSL or CCSL legally binding in all U.S. states? What about 
> worldwide?
>
> * Cake Software Foundation, yet again. Who are the board members? Only
> the founding and team members are listed in
> http://www.cakefoundation.org/pages/about when the current members are
> about to be replaced, who gets to decide the replacements? How are
> future board members prevented from taking the Foundation into a
> different (read: evil) direction?
>
> That's about it with regards to the issues that need to be clarified.
> Please note the following:
>
> * All the concerns listed above are my employer's, with the exception
> of the concerns regarding CSL and CCSL (those are mine, as I wish to
> contribute some patches to CakePHP someday).
>
> * It is not my intention to start a flamewar about these things. My
> intention is to seek advise from those *in the know* so that I can
> provide a case for using CakePHP on this project and future projects.
> So please, make sure to check your ideologies with the big guy at the
> door before responding :)
>
> * I would also appreciate it very much if someone were to direct me to
> suitable reference online in addition to the following:
>
> http://www.cakefoundation.org/pages/about
> http://www.cakefoundation.org/pages/cla
> http://www.cakefoundation.org/pages/agreement
> http://www.cakefoundation.org/pages/bylaws
>
> * Here are some articles he pointed out to me:
>
> http://www.chillingeffects.org/ecom/ - list of lawsuits involving
> E-commerce sites pay special attention to the Pangea Intellectual
> Properties entry.
>
> http://htmlfixit.com/?p=72 - one of the companies sued by PanIP.
>
> Eolas has been kind enough not to sue the Mozilla Foundation. It seems
> to be the case in the USPTO that if you apply for a patent enough
> times, eventually you will get an examiner who is too lazy to look
> things up and then you get a patent.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>   


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