Exactly, Alan. No role names needed if corner is a place not a person. Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Winston, Alan P. <wins...@slac.stanford.edu> > wrote: > > Just clarification again. By first corners you mean the people who are > standing in first corners at the time of the call? If so that's why this > isn't a substitution of role names. > > Is this what you mean? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 2, 2015, at 12:52 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers > <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Ric, >> The ECD confusion is a result of our often using corners to refer to people, >> but not 100% of the time. I propose that we never refer to corners as the >> people, only use those words to refer to the position. In any hands four no >> matter where anyone lands, someone is in the top first corner, someone else >> in too second corner, etc. you can swap, the dance can move you around, but >> that position is forever. >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:43 PM, Ric Goldman <letsda...@rgoldman.org> wrote: >> >>> Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but even in ECD the >>> terminology for corners is subject to confusion. If folks have shifted >>> from their original positions (for example after a “trade places with >>> partner” move), a reference to “1st corners do such-and-such” is often met >>> by a question from the dancers “is that people or places?”. For example, >>> if you’re facing across the set, and during a fwd-and-back, there’s a >>> rollaway with a half sashay, would you call the person on the right the 1st >>> corner (right diagonal based on the facing direction) or the 2nd corner >>> (left diagonal based on where they were facing at the beginning of the >>> dance). Therein lies the potential confusion. >>> >>> I wonder what the impact of this would be on chaos contra with the >>> additional position or role swappring mid dance. Of course, that’s the >>> dancers’ conundrum, not the callers. J >>> >>> Thanx, >>> Ric Goldman >>> >>> From: Callers [mailto:callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of >>> Perry Shafran via Callers >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 7:42 AM >>> To: Andrea Nettleton >>> Cc: call...@sharedweight.net >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in >>> that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In >>> ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, >>> because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In >>> an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the >>> diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions >>> (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second >>> corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by >>> thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, >>> with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of >>> "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first >>> corner". >>> >>> Perry >>> >>> From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>> To: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfue...@yahoo.com> >>> Cc: "call...@sharedweight.net" <call...@sharedweight.net> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> Hey Michael, >>> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will >>> always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their >>> partner in the hands four. >>> >>> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable >>> to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as >>> effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called >>> to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and >>> bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they >>> struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them >>> the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction >>> to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? >>> That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after >>> swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have >>> served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the >>> pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding >>> into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the >>> geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for >>> a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People >>> mess up, but the place is always there. >>> >>> AN >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers >>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Consider this dance >>> >>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst >>> March, 1991 >>> >>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>> >>> A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>> >>> B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. >>> >>> B2 Women allemande right (4). >>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to >>> meet new >>> neighbors (4). >>> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers >>> understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on >>> the right) >>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst >>> March, 1991 >>> >>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>> >>> A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>> >>> B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. >>> >>> B2 Second corners allemande right (4). >>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to >>> meet new >>> neighbors (4) >>> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems >>> best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather >>> than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the >>> dance. >>> >>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers >>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost >>> as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they >>> stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use >>> diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning >>> the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner >>> reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of >>> triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is >>> second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along >>> opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance >>> beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly >>> identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, >>> you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each >>> 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as >>> adapting, IMHO. >>> Andrea >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <wins...@slac.stanford.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling >>> since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self >>> improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not >>> gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can >>> answer. >>> >>> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the >>> most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies >>> line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first >>> diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra >>> corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >>> >>> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first >>> gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If >>> you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the >>> ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. >>> >>> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now >>> do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a >>> wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >>> >>> >>> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to >>> becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply >>> before you becketize, which would be my preference. >>> >>> Does that clear it up ? >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers >>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >>> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to >>> Lambertville, et all? >>> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >>> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, >>> Jurassic Redheads, etc. >>> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >>> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >>> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't >>> mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >>> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >>> Ron >>> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" >>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at >>> Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of >>> global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, >>> everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most >>> unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of >>> first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same >>> role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to >>> gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for >>> example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in >>> those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to >>> refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But >>> since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems >>> unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are >>> trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >>> Cheers, >>> Andrea >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers >>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in >>> gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis >>> using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a >>> great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings >>> dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several >>> dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or >>> unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that >>> there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 >>> than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were >>> gender free. >>> >>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it >>> is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call >>> gender free. >>> >>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of >>> gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, >>> arcadia...@gmail.com. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jim Hemphill >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
