It should be noted that there ARE contra dances that use the first/second
corner terminology. The Third of July by Tom Hinds is one. The new Centennial
Reel is another. The reason why corners aren't used is that there simply
aren't enough dances written to make use of first/second corners. I'm with
Andrea on this. Contra isn't so much different from ECD. I think that callers
and dancers could make that work.
Perry
From: Ron Blechner via Callers <[email protected]>
To: Andrea Nettleton <[email protected]>
Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling
Comparing ECD and Contra has uses. But only to a point.Consider:ECD
walkthroughs often take many times longer than contra walkthroughs.The pace and
tempo of ECD and Contra are often exceedingly different. Contra dancers often
have far less time to react to words they hear.Contra has medleys.Contra and
ECD pull from different move sets, and while similar, is a factor.Contra dances
need to work with a variety of musical tunes.So with those in mind, rhetorical
statements like "If they were that awkward, they would have long since been
replaced." don't work. Relying on "it works in ECD so it works in contra" - or
vice versa - is not feasible.Also, they *have* been replaced. Contra grew out
of ECD, and the terms changed to fit. The fact that contra grew out of using
corners is evidence that corners doesn't work for contra. Else, why'd it ever
grow away from those terms?On Jun 2, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton via
Callers" <[email protected]> wrote:
English callers and dancers clearly have no trouble saying or understanding
these terms. If they were that awkward, they would long since have been
replaced. I think we see positions as roles purely from habit. If I taught a
roomful of kids who had never danced using no roles, would they think of having
danced a role?
It's each leader's call how to teach ballroom hold. I suggest getting becket,
the noting which hand you are holding with your P, so you can remember to end
holding it again. Keep holding that hand as you face P. Place those same
hands on your partners scapula, the dancer using Rhd below, left hand user
above. The free indicator hands are then loosely connected. Boom, ballroom
hold. You still use the loose hand to indicate which way to face after the
swing and let go of them, opening up like a book, so you are again holding the
connector hands as in the beginning.
I'm wondering what kinds of groups are even contemplating using non gendered
terms, or positional calling. Experienced groups of dancers currently using
'gents and ladies' seem unlikely to do so, and it would likely have little
effect on the way people dance. Most would continue dancing whatever role they
usually did, and pretty soon, any newcomer could see at a glance that if male,
one dances Jet, and if female, Ruby. So we'd just end up with another pair of
terms associated with traditional gender roles. Positional calling prevents
the reassociation of gender with a new term, but I bet the structure of the
dance would be largely unchanged.OTOH, if we are talking about groups which
have always been gender free, or new groups which fully intend to be gender
free, I believe there would be little resistance to using global terminology,
and using corners as a position, not a person, is the ultimate neutral mode.
The assumption there is that all dancers are created equal, and it's a team
sport, where each needs to understand the whole dance and their place in it.
The topic has been broached, as I understand it, because we care about making
the dance space, or some dance spaces, a safe place to not worry about gender
identity, because some people are very sensitive/are exploring/have identified
in a non traditional way. If we are sincere in our wish to make them
comfortable, that care does not end because it requires more effort to learn to
understand and teach a particular way. Inconvenient isn't relevant. We are
creative people. If we wanted to, we could shorten those terms for prompting
(firsts and seconds). We can train ourselves to deeply understand how the
positions work and evolve cleaner, more efficient teaches. The search, to my
understanding, was for an optimal universal way of calling gender free contra.
If we are ok with sub optimal, we could just keep bands and bares, or the
occasional moon and stars, which have been used for decades. I will use
whatever any given community wants me to use. If I were faced with offering an
option to my home gender free group, I would do my best first to try to be a
kick ass global terminology caller, before giving in to naming roles, because I
truly believe that method is more neutral than any other.Cheers,Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers
to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've
basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels
seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar.
At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner",
isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced
dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like
jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens?
On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that
designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the
dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance
terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm
more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a
raven.
Perry
From: Ron Blechner <[email protected]>
To: Perry Shafran <[email protected]>
Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]>; Andrea Nettleton
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling
If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position...On Jun 2, 2015
10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" <[email protected]> wrote:
After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that
corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where
most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in
proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper
dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So
therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as
in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing,
first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you
could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place.
Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second
corner" and "ladies" with "first corner".
Perry
From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <[email protected]>
To: Michael Fuerst <[email protected]>
Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling
Hey Michael,I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners,
will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to
their partner in the hands four.
The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to
elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively
this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD,
ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as
clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends
where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their
corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand
they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their
connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus.
The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the
arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on
knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a
label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't
there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your
place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there.
AN
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
Consider this dance
E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst
March, 1991
A1 Balance and swing neighbor.
A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner.
B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor.
B2 Women allemande right (4).
1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until
neighbors on the side they started the dance (8).
Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet
new
neighbors (4).Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes
(as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end
the swing on the right)E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper
Michael Fuerst March, 1991
A1 Balance and swing neighbor.
A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner.
B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor.
B2 Second corners allemande right (4).
1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until
neighbors on the side they started the dance (8).
Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet
new
neighbors (4)This makes the dance obscure to beginning and
intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and
women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at
any point in the dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL
61801 217 239 5844
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as
much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick.
I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In
contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair
along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is
actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances.
Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a
hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place
not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain,
and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine.
If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it
would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not
as useful as adapting, IMHO.Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling
since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self
improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender
free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer.
The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the
most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line
is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first
diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners
and the immediate neighbor in a square.
However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent
and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply
that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on
the first corners, the gents on the second corners.
The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do
with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in
the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in.
You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket,
where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you
becketize, which would be my preference.
Does that clear it up ?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
Andrea, how would you handle the following:1. Lines of one role/position to the
center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all?2. Indication of who
walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star?3. Indication of who-leads-who, such
as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc.4. Indication of who
is passing while calling a hey.5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box
circulate?6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't
mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways?None of
these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated.Ron On Jun 1, 2015
11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <[email protected]> wrote:
In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire
over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global
terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone
would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual
figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and
second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers
to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second
corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have
to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that
moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first
and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to
those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions
works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for
an opportunity myself before now.Cheers,Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender
free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender
free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I
received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and
after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as
well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I
taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a
swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that
the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a
fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the
dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the
program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the
program from, send me an email, [email protected]. Thanks,Jim Hemphill
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