On the contrary. I think that people will find it difficult to remember which
is the lark and which is the raven. And I don't get this differentiation
between "labelling the roles" vs. doing something else. Larks and ravens are
labels too. I'm just trying to figure out something that is useful for people
to be able to remember and something that also can be universal. Coming up
with creative terms is fun but it's also next to impossible to find something
that one can agree on. The corner designations are clearly genderfree and
yeah, there are syllables, but I'm sure we can find ways to shorten it (like
"firsts" and "seconds").
Andrea also noted the differentiation between place and person: "In my
opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the
dance. People mess up, but the place is always there." I think that is a
useful tidbit for people to understand as well. You know the position, dance
with the person in that position regardless of who that person is. That's
useful for both new dancers and experienced dancers.
Perry
From: Maia McCormick via Callers <[email protected]>
To: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling
I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers
to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've
basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels
seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar.
At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner",
isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced
dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like
jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens?
On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that
designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the
dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance
terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm
more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a
raven.
Perry
From: Ron Blechner <[email protected]>
To: Perry Shafran <[email protected]>
Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]>; Andrea Nettleton
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling
If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position...On Jun 2, 2015
10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" <[email protected]> wrote:
After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that
corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where
most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in
proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper
dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So
therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as
in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing,
first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you
could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place.
Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second
corner" and "ladies" with "first corner".
Perry
From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <[email protected]>
To: Michael Fuerst <[email protected]>
Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling
Hey Michael,I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners,
will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to
their partner in the hands four.
The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to
elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively
this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD,
ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as
clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends
where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their
corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand
they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their
connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus.
The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the
arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on
knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a
label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't
there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your
place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there.
AN
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
Consider this dance
E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst
March, 1991
A1 Balance and swing neighbor.
A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner.
B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor.
B2 Women allemande right (4).
1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until
neighbors on the side they started the dance (8).
Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet
new
neighbors (4).Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes
(as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end
the swing on the right)E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper
Michael Fuerst March, 1991
A1 Balance and swing neighbor.
A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner.
B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor.
B2 Second corners allemande right (4).
1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until
neighbors on the side they started the dance (8).
Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet
new
neighbors (4)This makes the dance obscure to beginning and
intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and
women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at
any point in the dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL
61801 217 239 5844
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as
much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick.
I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In
contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair
along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is
actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances.
Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a
hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place
not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain,
and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine.
If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it
would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not
as useful as adapting, IMHO.Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling
since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self
improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender
free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer.
The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the
most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line
is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first
diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners
and the immediate neighbor in a square.
However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent
and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply
that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on
the first corners, the gents on the second corners.
The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do
with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in
the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in.
You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket,
where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you
becketize, which would be my preference.
Does that clear it up ?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
Andrea, how would you handle the following:1. Lines of one role/position to the
center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all?2. Indication of who
walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star?3. Indication of who-leads-who, such
as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc.4. Indication of who
is passing while calling a hey.5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box
circulate?6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't
mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways?None of
these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated.Ron On Jun 1, 2015
11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <[email protected]> wrote:
In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire
over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global
terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone
would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual
figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and
second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers
to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second
corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have
to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that
moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first
and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to
those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions
works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for
an opportunity myself before now.Cheers,Andrea
Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers
<[email protected]> wrote:
The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender
free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender
free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I
received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and
after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as
well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I
taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a
swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that
the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a
fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the
dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the
program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the
program from, send me an email, [email protected]. Thanks,Jim Hemphill
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