You know I don't give a flying fuck what the legal definition is that has nothing to do with medicine. In case you have not realized lawyers are not doctors. But then again given your shaky ideas of what constitutes valid science I'm not surprised you'd rather use a very inexact definition from an unconstitutional law.
I use the definitions provided by the AMA and the BMA. These are solid definitions backed by evidenced based medicine. Moreover the consensus medical opinion, as offered by the court appointed neurologists was that Ms. Shaivo is in a persistent vegetative state. I would rather go with this diagnosis than that offered by the person her parents hired - whom Judge Greer characterized a self promoter with no scientific evidence that his treatment works. -- In Greer's order, the Pinellas probate judge labeled Hammesfahr a "self-promoter," who testified that he had treated patients worse off than Mrs. Schiavo yet "offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no test results to support his claim." In short, the judge wrote in the nine-page order, he needed "something more than a belief" that some new treatment could restore Mrs. Schiavo's faculties "so as to significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a preponderance of evidence to that effect." -- taken from the St. Petersburg Fl. Times online edition http://www.sptimes.com/2002/11/23/TampaBay/Judge__Schiavo_can_t_.shtml Moreover many of the involuntary behaviors you characterize are simply that involuntary, non-intentional behaviors (for a full definition see http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/75/884/321). When you strongly want to believe otherwise, frequently these behaviors are often cited as evidence that the person is aware. With Ms. Shaivo's parents this would appear to be the case. However such belief doesn't explain the atrophy in the cortex as shown in CAT scans and MRI's. Moreover, the appelate and now the Supreme courts have all agreed with the original decision, and hopefully any treatment for Ms. Shaivo will be withdrawn. On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:36:00 -0800, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://www.terrisfight.org/myths.html > > MYTH: Terri is PVS (Persistent vegetative state) > FACT: The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101: > Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible > condition of unconsciousness in which there is: > > (a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind. > (b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment. > > Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of > persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to > communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in > interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from > irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move > around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, > instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she > does interact purposefully with her environment. > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:56:27 -0500, Larry C. Lyons > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The video clips are very well edited. What they do not show is the > > full story. That British Medical Journal article that I cited earlier > > had a good diagnosis of the condition > > > > "Patients in a vegetative state seem to be awake with their eyes open > > but show no evidence of awareness. They do not interact with others > > and make no purposeful or voluntary responses to visual, auditory, > > tactile, or noxious stimuli. They are able to breathe spontaneously, > > and they retain their gag, cough, sucking, and swallowing reflexes. > > Sleep-wake cycles are preserved, and so are the hypothalamic and brain > > stem autonomic responses. They are incontinent of urine and faeces, > > but they may retain their cranial nerve, spinal, and primitive > > reflexes. Inconsistent non-purposive movements occur, notably facial > > grimacing and chewing; they make sounds; and they may show > > inconsistent auditory and oculomotor orienting reflexes to peripheral > > sounds or movement. The diagnosis of a vegetative state is not tenable > > if there is any degree of voluntary movement, sustained visual > > pursuit, consistent and reproducible visual fixation, or response to > > threatening gestures." > > > > The medical documents that the courts have released suggest that this > > diagnosis fits the Shaivo case very well. Her EEG show no higher > > functioning, just low level autonomic nervous system responses. You > > get the same when you put the electrodes in a bowel of jello and place > > it on the top of the machine. > > > > larry > > > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:46:44 -0700, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > my god I am agreeing with Sam. But yes, I have seen the site and > > > that's why I say she doesn't look dead to me. I realize that they will > > > have chosen the clips that support their point but if there are ANY, > > > if this woman is aware at all, what are the ethics of pulling the > > > plug? I was not, however, aware that here was any money left, but > > > there is your motive if that's true. > > > > > > Larry I need to leave but I will take a look at that link a bit later. > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:33:37 -0800, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Tell him that's not true. > > > > > > > > Since Feb '93 they've been trying to remove him as guardian. Terri was > > > > awarded $1.4 million from a malpractice lawsuit that goes to her > > > > medical care. If she dies her husband inherits what's left, about $1 > > > > million. > > > > > > > > Ironically, Michael Schiavo never mentioned her so called wishes until > > > > after the monetary award. Since then he's been trying to kill her. > > > > > > > > Also, he's been living with his fiance for ten years and has two kids > > > > with her. > > > > > > > > Main concern is they want to kill her by starvation. She's not on life > > > > support. > > > > > > > > Lot's of stuff. > > > > http://www.terrisfight.org/ > > > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:34:38 -0700, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > about a month or two ago? Christmastime? I suppose I could have > > > > > misunderstood, but I don't think so.... > > > > > > > > > > If they are not willing to pay for her care, the issue in my mind is > > > > > somewhat different. To be blunt, if we are talking public health > > > > > dollars, then the issue of triage perhaps should apply, especially if > > > > > the matter is as hopeless as Larry says it is. > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Save $10 Download ZoneAlarm Security Suite http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=66 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:144649 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
