Although I hate to agree that there should be some regulation... in the case of those two herbs I think there should. I repeat, they do the same thing as coumadin. Now, for those not familiar, when I was taking coumadin I had to get my blood checked as often as weekly for the hospital to feel comfortable. The issue of dose standardization bcomes very important in this context. And these are substances we are putting in beverages :) Now, I drink them and I do this knowing what I am doing drinking them, but I am sure there are people out there with a family distory of hemorraghic stroke who have no idea that these drinks are dangerous for them. Re contamination, I believe it was star anise, but we could have separately heard of separate incidents I suppose. Yes, there is an issue there. And I say this as someone who does take herbal supplements. On the issue of practitioners, there probably is an issue, though if you go to a Doctor of Oriental Medecine there has been some fairly stringent training and there are standards such as there are for physician assistants. I do believe however that in many jurisdictions there is nothing to prevent someone with a smidgen of knowledge from setting up shop as an "herbal practitioner." I double-checked on scholar.google.com <http://scholar.google.com> and there seems to be some serious evidence that ginko balboa is thereapeutic for some dementia patients at least and more questionably for memory loss in general. Possibly these people actually have had strokes that were misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's, but this sentence is pure speculation on my part. Now as to MIT, I have no personal knowledge of the therapy, and I do understand the problem of a scientist confronted with such things. But you identify two questions, does it work and does it work as described. While the scientist may get stuck on the latter, I submit that the patient and many doctors only care about the answer to the first. When I saw a DOM for a persistent cough, he prescribed something based on birch bark with an explanation that had somethign to do with yin and yang. I don't remember what it was, because all I wanted to know is whether it would work and whether it would have any side effects. It did and it did not. I wound up talking to a DOM because my primary now believes that in such cases antibiotics are no better than placebos, by the way. Perhaps the birch bark pills acted as placebos. I don't care. I got better. Medicine is a moving target and its algorithms get redefined as needed.
Dana On 7/19/05, Jim Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:39 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: the mechanism of action is unknown > > > > All very true. But explain to me how you are going to test the effect of > > the > > mind on healing in a double-blind study? This isn't something from the > > National Enquirer we're talking about... this is Lancet. Ergo, the > science > > is sound, or they would not have published it. > > Well there a definite differences between drug therapies and other > therapies > - we've been mixing the two willy-nilly here but you simply can't use the > same tests for both. > > For therapies like Theraputic Touch you have several avenues of > exploration > but they boil down to "does the therapy work?" and "does the stated > mechanism of the therapy work?" > > It's pretty clear in the case of Theraputic Touch that the second case is > a > resounding "now". According to practitioners they "feel wrongness" in > their > patients and can correct it. The patient doesn't have to be conscious or > even a whole body (practitioners have claimed to be able to affect > cancerous > growths in Petri dishes). > > However the first is a more complex question. Does the therapy work, but > in > some other way? This requires lots of testing in different ways - it's > clear from current studies that there's no effect if the patient isn't > aware > of the treatment for example. > > So what if we have a control group getting "fake" treatment that shows the > same benefits? > > > On a slightly different topic there is also a problem with the current > > paradigm in that drug companies are being relied on for research. Based > on > > my adventures in the land of coumadin, I can assure you that a similar > > effect can be had with either ginko balboa or gingseng. However, there > is > > an > > issue of standardizing the dose, one, and monitoring the very > considerable > > side effects. Therefore, people with clotting issues are given a > substance > > best known for being a rat poison, rather than a substance best known > for > > improving memory, because there is a patent on the former and not the > > latter. > > I can't agree with you more. > > Herbal remedies definitely have an effect and, I feel, should be > controlled > substances. However the current system leads to several problems: > > +) In nearly all cases patients are self-medicating or accepting dosage > contracts from people with, at best, questionable credentials. > > +) Since such "supplements" aren't controlled as drugs are it leads to > problems with handing and contamination. There was a case not too long ago > in Australia where a shipment of Ginko (if I remember correctly) was > contaminated with a highly toxic mold sending several people into comas. > Even without that extremity tests continuously show many popular, > uncontrolled supplements to be tainted and their labeled dosages to be > wildly inaccurate. > > +) Although many "natural" remedies affect the body just as much or more > than prescription medication most people don't tell their doctors about > them. This leads to nasty interactions and sometimes serious problems. > > +) Natural remedies are not tested for efficacy or dosage. Traditional > cures are linked with traditional illnesses and in many cases that's that. > In the same vein "mega-dosing" herbal remedies and vitamins (popular in > certain circles) has been shown to do essentially nothing. > > +) Its all folklore and association. For example Ginko has some benefits > for certain things but (to my knowledge at least) has never been proven to > help memory at all. > > Instead certain tests indicated that Ginko might provide some specific > relief to Alzheimer's patients. This was then twisted by the supplement > companies as being a "miracle memory pill". > > The same thing happened when injections of shark cartilage was shown to > have > some positive effect on specific kinds of tumors. This was suddenly > twisted > to show that eating "Shark Pills" could prevent cancer. > > In all sorts of ways herbal and other natural remedies stated and accepted > uses snowball out of control. Being uncontrolled there's an underground > movement convinced that these miracle, natural remedies are being "held > back" by the big drug companies (a conspiracy theory so plausible because > it's not far from the truth) and a knowing wink made whenever the "these > statements have not been evaluated..." disclaimer is shown. > > The labels "natural" and "homeopathic" get thrown around in this arena > with > no regard for what they actually mean. "Homeopathic" in particular is > ridiculous as it's now a selling point for blatantly non-homeopathic drugs > (meaning the drugs actually have active ingredients)! > > The whole area is a huge mess. > > Jim Davis > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:165469 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
