on ginko balboa, for example.. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15620194&dopt=Citation
On 7/19/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Although I hate to agree that there should be some regulation... in the > case of those two herbs I think there should. I repeat, they do the same > thing as coumadin. Now, for those not familiar, when I was taking coumadin I > had to get my blood checked as often as weekly for the hospital to feel > comfortable. The issue of dose standardization bcomes very important in this > context. And these are substances we are putting in beverages :) Now, I > drink them and I do this knowing what I am doing drinking them, but I am > sure there are people out there with a family distory of hemorraghic stroke > who have no idea that these drinks are dangerous for them. > Re contamination, I believe it was star anise, but we could have > separately heard of separate incidents I suppose. Yes, there is an issue > there. And I say this as someone who does take herbal supplements. > On the issue of practitioners, there probably is an issue, though if you > go to a Doctor of Oriental Medecine there has been some fairly stringent > training and there are standards such as there are for physician assistants. > I do believe however that in many jurisdictions there is nothing to prevent > someone with a smidgen of knowledge from setting up shop as an "herbal > practitioner." > I double-checked on scholar.google.com <http://scholar.google.com/> and > there seems to be some serious evidence that ginko balboa is thereapeutic > for some dementia patients at least and more questionably for memory loss in > general. Possibly these people actually have had strokes that were > misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's, but this sentence is pure speculation on my > part. > Now as to MIT, I have no personal knowledge of the therapy, and I do > understand the problem of a scientist confronted with such things. But you > identify two questions, does it work and does it work as described. While > the scientist may get stuck on the latter, I submit that the patient and > many doctors only care about the answer to the first. > When I saw a DOM for a persistent cough, he prescribed something based on > birch bark with an explanation that had somethign to do with yin and yang. I > don't remember what it was, because all I wanted to know is whether it would > work and whether it would have any side effects. It did and it did not. I > wound up talking to a DOM because my primary now believes that in such cases > antibiotics are no better than placebos, by the way. Perhaps the birch bark > pills acted as placebos. I don't care. I got better. > Medicine is a moving target and its algorithms get redefined as needed. > > Dana > On 7/19/05, Jim Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:39 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: the mechanism of action is unknown > > > > > > All very true. But explain to me how you are going to test the effect > > of > > > the > > > mind on healing in a double-blind study? This isn't something from the > > > National Enquirer we're talking about... this is Lancet. Ergo, the > > science > > > is sound, or they would not have published it. > > > > Well there a definite differences between drug therapies and other > > therapies > > - we've been mixing the two willy-nilly here but you simply can't use > > the > > same tests for both. > > > > For therapies like Theraputic Touch you have several avenues of > > exploration > > but they boil down to "does the therapy work?" and "does the stated > > mechanism of the therapy work?" > > > > It's pretty clear in the case of Theraputic Touch that the second case > > is a > > resounding "now". According to practitioners they "feel wrongness" in > > their > > patients and can correct it. The patient doesn't have to be conscious or > > even a whole body (practitioners have claimed to be able to affect > > cancerous > > growths in Petri dishes). > > > > However the first is a more complex question. Does the therapy work, but > > in > > some other way? This requires lots of testing in different ways - it's > > clear from current studies that there's no effect if the patient isn't > > aware > > of the treatment for example. > > > > So what if we have a control group getting "fake" treatment that shows > > the > > same benefits? > > > > > On a slightly different topic there is also a problem with the current > > > paradigm in that drug companies are being relied on for research. > > Based on > > > my adventures in the land of coumadin, I can assure you that a similar > > > > > effect can be had with either ginko balboa or gingseng. However, there > > is > > > an > > > issue of standardizing the dose, one, and monitoring the very > > considerable > > > side effects. Therefore, people with clotting issues are given a > > substance > > > best known for being a rat poison, rather than a substance best known > > for > > > improving memory, because there is a patent on the former and not the > > > latter. > > > > I can't agree with you more. > > > > Herbal remedies definitely have an effect and, I feel, should be > > controlled > > substances. However the current system leads to several problems: > > > > +) In nearly all cases patients are self-medicating or accepting dosage > > contracts from people with, at best, questionable credentials. > > > > +) Since such "supplements" aren't controlled as drugs are it leads to > > problems with handing and contamination. There was a case not too long > > ago > > in Australia where a shipment of Ginko (if I remember correctly) was > > contaminated with a highly toxic mold sending several people into comas. > > Even without that extremity tests continuously show many popular, > > uncontrolled supplements to be tainted and their labeled dosages to be > > wildly inaccurate. > > > > +) Although many "natural" remedies affect the body just as much or more > > than prescription medication most people don't tell their doctors about > > them. This leads to nasty interactions and sometimes serious problems. > > > > +) Natural remedies are not tested for efficacy or dosage. Traditional > > cures are linked with traditional illnesses and in many cases that's > > that. > > In the same vein "mega-dosing" herbal remedies and vitamins (popular in > > certain circles) has been shown to do essentially nothing. > > > > +) Its all folklore and association. For example Ginko has some benefits > > for certain things but (to my knowledge at least) has never been proven > > to > > help memory at all. > > > > Instead certain tests indicated that Ginko might provide some specific > > relief to Alzheimer's patients. This was then twisted by the supplement > > companies as being a "miracle memory pill". > > > > The same thing happened when injections of shark cartilage was shown to > > have > > some positive effect on specific kinds of tumors. This was suddenly > > twisted > > to show that eating "Shark Pills" could prevent cancer. > > > > In all sorts of ways herbal and other natural remedies stated and > > accepted > > uses snowball out of control. Being uncontrolled there's an underground > > movement convinced that these miracle, natural remedies are being "held > > back" by the big drug companies (a conspiracy theory so plausible > > because > > it's not far from the truth) and a knowing wink made whenever the "these > > statements have not been evaluated..." disclaimer is shown. > > > > The labels "natural" and "homeopathic" get thrown around in this arena > > with > > no regard for what they actually mean. "Homeopathic" in particular is > > ridiculous as it's now a selling point for blatantly non-homeopathic > > drugs > > (meaning the drugs actually have active ingredients)! > > > > The whole area is a huge mess. > > > > Jim Davis > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:165472 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
