Sam wrote: > OK I can see why some people might think I'm a right-wing Religious nut-job. > Let me clarify, I'm not against gay marriage, I just don't think our > culture is ready for it so let it go for a few more years, maybe > things will change. Right now if civil union works use it. I'm totally
People made the same argument about civil rights for Blacks in the 60's and woman's sufferage in the '20s. Sorry, but I'm not buying it. The American culture will never be "ready" for it -- they will get used to it. > against states banning civil unions and if a particular states civil > union doesn't allow for equal rights then I say change it. Thanks for that. > I was addressing the religious aspect of this. American culture is > strongly based on religion so that may be why it was originally taboo > but now many non-religious people are against gay marriage. It's now > embedded in our culture. Pedophilia is accepted in some cultures but > not here yet, if it were condemned in the Bible, Gruss would insist we > legalized it. With regard to pedophelia: pedophelia is illegal for basically the same reason that 12-year-olds aren't allowed to vote. Children aren't considered mature enough to make rational decisions about such deep topics. Having sex with someone unable to decide whether or not they should is considered rape. I'd just as soon avoid a debate about whether kids should be able to make such decisions and, for that matter, vote. I'm just pointing out the rationale. > The studies Larry is referring to show homosexuality is a > physiological condition. What about rape and pedophilia? That'll get > me in trouble but I don't mean it as an insult gay. I'm referring to > rumors I heard somewhere that rapist and pedophilias are incurable. If > it weren't for society they would be considered normal. I'll save > Larry trouble and admit I know nothing about physiology or psychology. > I'm just trying to make a point about culture. And that is it's more > cultural then religious so when culture acceptance changes then they > can use the word marriage. Okay, I'm going to take a bit of offense here. Yes, things like pedophelia may have a physiological basis -- I don't know if anyone has ever studied that. But you are, in essense, comparing gay people to sociopaths. The big difference between a rapist, pedophile, or sociopath and someone who is gay is that being gay doesn't hurt anyone else. If two guys like each other, who does that harm? If someone enjoys killing people, who does that harm? Not really the same, IMHO. > I think the same culture that causes gays to want their bond to be > called marriage is the same culture that's forbidding it. If the clerk > asked me if I wanted a marriage or civil union way back I would have > said which one is cheaper. 12 years later I still haven't looked at > that document, I don't even know where it is. So why would they need > to use that word so much if it weren't for the culture that made that > word desirable? Why do gays have a civil right to use the word > marriage? I think someone mentioned bestiality on this list way back, > what about the civil rights to marry your dog? I should have the civil > right to put PHD after my name while we're at it. I don't even know if > that's illegal :) If the clerk asked you if you wanted a marriage or civil union, you have a choice. Having the choice taken away from you is what's hurtful. A random example: I don't drink. It's not safe for me to drink. I've never really had that much of an urge to drink for the sake of getting a buzz, but there have been many times in my life that I've chafed against the restriction. It's not that I necessarily want the wine, it's that I want the choice. By the way, it is not illegal to say you're a PhD, unless you are doing it for fraudulent purposes. It's really not any different than saying you're name is Bob Smith. Calling yourself Bob Smith is legal; representing yourself as such for legal (ie telling the cops or court that) or financial (ie identity theft) is not legal. So, as long as you weren't defrauding anyone, you can basically be MD PhD Esquire Knight of the Round Table if you want. > Now for the Greeks and Romans. I'm no expert on Greek culture but if I > remember correctly the men married women for social reasons but had > sex with anyone that entered the orgy. Although accepted in the > culture it was usually behind the scenes. Roman culture might have > been the same, I know even less about that. Greeks and Roman men had homosexual sex as a recreational an social activity. You'd go to the bar, have a couple beers, get screwed up the arse. All fun and games. This was especially common among nobles. In fact, if you weren't having anal sex with other men, you were considered something odd. Marriages, again esp. among nobles, were often to link houses or for other sociopolitical reasons, not for love or anything fun like that. > Now you all know why I usually like to keep it short and to the point, > it's been 25 years since I was in an English class :) I don't mind you being a bit long-winded. I do it myself. And if it helps you make your point, all the better. Feel free to respond with as many words as you want. Let's see how long it takes to set of MikeyD's too-many-line warning! --Ben ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Purchase Studio MX with Flash Pro from House of Fusion, a Macromedia Authorized Affiliate and support the CF community. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=51 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:173551 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
