> I disagree here Michael and here is why. In the last years we have 
poured
> over 70 billion into the system with no actual success. The last (and 
only)
> success was because they told the system right where to aim and used a
> reflector to help the missile paint the target. It was not even aiming 
at a
> MIRV, just one large target. MIRVs are small and very, very hard to 
hit.

This is a bit of an aside and not directed at you Gary but in response 
of posts that are paralleling this one, but during those "last years" 
wasn't Clinton in charge? We're people comparing him to Reagan and 
everything wrong with the 80's? No?  That's an example of different 
standards.  That was one of the issues that I supported Clinton on.  I 
think Nick has been commenting on this really well.  We have to walk 
before we crawl.  How many rockets blew up before we finally got one to 
go up?  I don't know, but I know it was a lot.  Should we have quit?  
No, because the reasons that we were doing it for were noble (the moon). 
 I don't subscribe to the Big bad evil corporation mentality so that 
argument fails with me.  I believe that our government, over the past 
however many years that this thing has been developed, is doing it with 
the intent to protect its citizens.

> Unilaterally pulling out of a negotiated treaty is a bad idea and 
set's a
> poor precedent for the future. In essence, it says that you cannot 
trust
> American to stick to a treaty. That is exactly what it says in fact. 
What
> might America pull out of in the future that we cannot agree on after 
we
> change the rules?

It would be a bad idea if that treaty were still serving our best 
interests, but I don't believe that the ABM treaty, in its current form, 
is.  There were attempts to modify it, but those attempts failed so a 
decision was made; stick with a treaty that doesn't allow us to develop 
technologies that allow us to defend ourselves, or to dump it. We dumped 
it.  The trust issue is a very good point and is, in my opinion, the 
really bad side of doing this.  I think that Bush is putting a lot of 
faith in Powell to reassure people that this isn't as bad as it could 
be.  I have faith in him too.

As for the money, those other things are being taken care of. Regarding 
health care, you were in the military right? I don't know about the Air 
Force but the Army medical system left something to be desired, and I 
think that would be a fairly accurate model of a government run system. 
I know 3 people personally that are 'disabled because of doctor screw 
ups in the Army and one that is dead because of malpractice.  And guess 
what...you can't sue.  If the government ran a health care system, you 
wouldn't be able to sue either. No accountability.  Furthermore, the 
government has to meet quotas which means that gender, race, etc. is a 
larger factor than qualifications.  No thanks, I'll pass.

Good points though Gary.  I like debating with you...it's so easy to win 
;-)  Even easier then debating Larry :-o ;-)

Michael Corrigan
Programmer
Endora Digital Solutions 
www.endoradigital.com
630/942-5211 x-134
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. 
  To: CF-Community 
  Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:03 PM
  Subject: RE: Ouch


  I disagree here Michael and here is why. In the last years we have 
poured
  over 70 billion into the system with no actual success. The last (and 
only)
  success was because they told the system right where to aim and used a
  reflector to help the missile paint the target. It was not even aiming 
at a
  MIRV, just one large target. MIRVs are small and very, very hard to 
hit.

  Unilaterally pulling out of a negotiated treaty is a bad idea and 
set's a
  poor precedent for the future. In essence, it says that you cannot 
trust
  American to stick to a treaty. That is exactly what it says in fact. 
What
  might America pull out of in the future that we cannot agree on after 
we
  change the rules?

  For the sake of argument, why would we not spend that money in other 
ways?
  Why not reorganize our espionage system? What will it cost us to 
maintain
  and support such a system? What are the alternatives? Who are these 
other
  countries and what is the status of there BM program? My guess it 
about 0%
  complete. North Korea has had no success. We can certainly manipulate 
the
  world enough to keep them from ever getting one. What motivates the
  companies that want the contracts? Is it altruism? Greed? Patriotism?

  Just some of my thoughts. Frankly, when people bitch about taxes and
  government meddling, this is what I think of. We spend far more on 
this type
  of stuff than on actually making life for people in America better.

  -Gary

  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:35 AM
  > To: CF-Community
  > Subject: Re: Ouch
  >
  >
  > Because there are countries/organizations/etc. that really don't 
like
  > the US and are actively seeking the means to launch
  > nuclear/chemical/biological weapons at the US and it is only a 
matter of
  > time until they get it.  One way to defend against this is to pursue 
the
  > course that our government is currently on, to develop a defensive
  > system that will help to protect us against such attacks.  The ABM
  > treaty prevents us from doing that. So, in order to develop this 
system,
  > we need to change it or withdraw from it.  Putin and Bush have met 
four
  > times that I can recall to change it and it has been unsuccessful.  
So,
  > we pull out.  Makes sense to me.
  >
  > Michael Corrigan
  > Programmer
  > Endora Digital Solutions
  > www.endoradigital.com
  > 630/942-5211 x-134
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Benjamin Falloon
  >   To: CF-Community
  >   Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:21 AM
  >   Subject: Re: Ouch
  >
  >
  >   why is this good news?
  >   I'd be interested in your reasons...
  >
  >   Benjamin
  >
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >   To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >   Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 2:16 AM
  >   Subject: Re: Ouch
  >
  >
  >   > >-- President Bush announces U.S. withdrawing from
  >   > >Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty.
  >   >
  >   > Best news all week. That weenie Daschle apparently thinks it's a 
bad
  > idea,
  >   >
  >
  > 
  
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